I read it. I also said it clearly says “nor the Son, but only the Father” I need you to expand on the 2 natures, I don’t follow you here. It seems to support my argument than yours when I read it. That is why I think what I think. It isn’t an agenda or a side or a denomination I am trying to make it fit, I am reading it as I see it.
I have no clue, he is not the 1st person I have heard say that. I simply googled “God cannot look upon sin” and That article came up. I read it, agreed, and linked it.
I don’t judge someone based on their denomination, if they speak the truth from the scriptures and it is logical, I go with that.
It really seems to me like you are more of a hard core denominationalist, who seems to be more concerned about doctrine than knowing truth or asking questions.
I have no doubts in any of my posts. But I assume because for whatever reason, you keep referring to me as reggie and I am not. Reggie has some questions, I had some answers.
I can say the same to you brother.
My name is @still_learning, not Reggie…Though Reggie asked some questions and you answered some of them, you are referring to my quotes, so I have to assume you are talking to me?
I apologize for that. I am not the most eloquent speaker/writer. I get passionate about knowing God and get long winded at times. Something that seems so simple and obvious to me, I have a hard time seeing how you see it differently, so I have to assume why you could think like that, and then counter that argument. But it seems you are doing the same for me, as you keep referring to scriptures that seem to back up what I say, and then appeal to truths that we both agree on.
I am agreeing with you here.
I agree with most of this, but I think again in relative terms, the beatings were small fries compared to leaving heaven to come here. I am sure getting your finger cut off would hurt, but compared to having every finger broken, sliced up, dipped in salt and lemon (without going into too much detail, add most gruesome torture imaginable), a cut of finger is small fries.
To clarify, I am well aware of how horrible a crucifixion was. That should make it that much more evident that I think leaving the heaven to be rejected/mocked by man your whole life and then finally being separated from God is so bad, that it makes a crucifixion look like small fries.
A 200mph car is fast, very fast…but it is very slow relative to a bullet…which is very slow relative to a photon.
Crucifixion is horrible…but nothing compared to the latter part. I am not minimizing a crucifixion, I am maximizing the actual price paid and the sacrifice the Father and the Son made.
You seem to agree with me. The person was struck dead, not God. I 100% agree God doesn’t like sin. I just don’t think it he can’t look at it. I don’t even know what you mean by that? The reason God will not be present with sin, is because sin cannot be around Him, He is holy. God is like the sun, anything not holy is consumed in the presence of the sun. Or like darkness. If a “piece of darkness” tries to go near light, it becomes illuminated. If a “piece of light” ties to get near darkness, the darkness is illuminated. Darkness cannot harm light, light is not scared of darkness. Light might not like darkness, but if light goes near darkness, the darkness becomes the light, it is consumed by the light.
Hebrews 12:29 our "God is a consuming fire."
His holiness consumes sin, so sin can’t be near Him as it will be consumed.
It isn’t like God is setting a rule “I don’t like sin and I don’t want to be around it”. It is more like God is too holy, and sin cannot be near Him. Like the sun doesn’t make rules about not liking stuff and burning it up, it just does. The consequence of getting to close to the sun, is that you burn up. The consequence of getting to close to God (when in a state of sin) is that you die.
God also didn’t make a rule that said “sin is bad it must be punished with fury” The punishment or consequences of sin are self fulfilling, like If you jump off a building, you will fall. Not because gravity is angry at you, but because it is what happens. Sin is rejecting God, God is good, when you reject goodness, bad things fill that void. We have to be full of something, before sin, it was God. We we rejected God, there was a vacuum, that sin and bad things filled. Sin isn’t really a thing, it is us rejecting God. We reject Him, He can still look upon us, and call after us, but we can no longer look at Him.
God cannot sin because of some rule. He can’t reject Himself, it is a logical fallacy. A square can’t be a circle, God cannot sin. It isn’t a moral thing, like God is super good behaving and tries really hard. He is love, only goodness exudes from Him. It isn’t like he is powerless and sin is stronger than Him and limits Him, it is just like a circle can’t be a square.
So when something not of God which included rejection of Him occurs, God can see it, He looks upon it, He isn’t limited by it.
You need to have a respect and fear of God, know who He is and how He is holy. Sinful man can’t just go up willy nilly to Him disrespectful like. Just like a commoner can’t just go up to a king like he is a friend or fellow commoner. He had to be invited, be prepared, and be respectful, and then and only then would he not die. Same with God, you had to be a high priest, you were invited once a year, and you had to prepare (purify yourself according to the law) and in fear and respect, go into the holy of holies. But a king could visit a commoner all they wanted. Just like God can visit us when He wants. He can forgive our sins and provide the protection from His holiness on His terms. Like with Isaiah, God provided a way to purify Him.
It seems again that we are agreeing, it is a mater of semantics though. We both agree that sin cannot be in the presence of God, but you say God cannot be in the presence of sin.
You named some verses where a sinful man cannot be in the presence of God. But do you have any verses where God cannot be in the presence of sinful?
What about Satan being with God in Job? What about Jacob wrestling with God? What about Moses being next to God in the burning bush? I am naming instances where God was in the presence of sinful man or Satan.
Was Jesus less than the Father? How could Jesus be in the presence of sin if the Father can’t? Is Jesus greater than the Father? Reasons like these that complicate or turn both of your arguments, that Jesus was God (born perfect and had God powers) or that God can’t look upon sin, against each other.
Gen 6:5 “The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.”
Now if you were to say that God cannot look upon sin in approval, I would agree with you.
I also agree
Amen, I agree with all of that
I never inferred that.
Who is new agey? I like John Walton and those who learn with the ANE read things.
I apologize for the unclarity in that. Though in my defense, I also said I will appear to contradict myself, but you have to read till the end. But I will try to clarify.
God cannot sin, or make a square a circle. If you disagree with that, then there is no need to read further. God can turn a square into a circle, but then it is no longer a square, He could make it appear to me a circle, but by definition, a square cannot be a circle. This isn’t limiting the powers of God, it is a logical impossibility.
Nothing can be more than 100%. 100% is the whole. Now you can have different categories. Like a person can be 100% male, and 100% human or 100% black or 100% royal. Those are mathematically possible because they are in different categories. But you cannot be 100% human, and 100% dog. I don’t know the right word for it, maybe you or anyone smarter can help, but biology can only be 100%. If you had some dog dna in you, you would be 1% dog and 99% human. But you can’t add up to be more than 100% in biology.
Knowing this we can know that the biological makeup of Jesus was 100% human. 0% God. do you agree with that? His heritage/lineage was 100% God. This is why it was a 50/50 “conception” Half came from God/heavens, half came from humans so God was 50% human and 50% God in that case. Adam was 100% human, we are 100% human. So when I say Jesus was not God, that is what I mean. He was a human, 100%.
Now just as a human can be 100% human AND 100% black or asian (chose your race/lineage) or 100% royal. A prince is 100% human, but also (if born from a king, 100% royal. His lineage is what makes Him royal, not his merit or acts or deeds. Jesus also did not need to do anything to “prove” His Godship, He was a Son of the Father. Jesus was 100% God.
So though it could appear as to contradict myself when I say Jesus was God and then turn around and say Jesus was not God, there is no contradiction there. Much like the Bible that appears to contradict itself, it doesn’t, we just need to read into it more and understand the context.
I realize I could have helped you infer better from my context if I make more clear “categories”, and for that I apologize.
So now, we have this 100% human Jesus. Humans could sin, they were born/created to be dependent on God and rely on His will and instructions to live eternally. But we had this propensity to sin, to reject God’s ways and try to attain perfection of our own accord. The only way to not sin, is to fully embrace dependence on God and His will 100% of the time. Jesus did this, He remained sinless throughout His life. He was tempted, and could have sinned, He knows how it feels to be tempted, He was human.
I don’t believe Jesus could have sinned because of who He was though. If Jesus did His own human will and not the will of the Father (that alone would have been a sin), but He also would not have been able to avoid temptation of His own human merit.
When Jesus was tempted, what did He do? Did He say “I am Jesus, back away from me, I have powers”? No. He used the scriptures inspired by His Father. I am also willing to bet He prayed that morning and received His daily bread from the Father. He was probably in a pray without ceasing meditation with the holy Spirit, who helped Him as well. That is how He didn’t sin, not of His human strength, but the strength of God through Him.
So if even the Son of God cannot not sin on His own human merit, why do we thing we could ever? The only way to not sin is through the strength of God, which is only now received after the atoning and reconciling death of Jesus, as we are given the Holy Spirit. We can now through the strength of God, no longer sin. That wouldn’t make us perfect, as we still have sinned in the past and needed reconciliation. And it is not easy, and I don’t know anyone who succeeds in this. But why would you believe that through the new birth in God, that we can not no longer sin? Jesus conquered death, He gave us the Spirit to help us. Clearly we are so messed up, even a life time of learning about God and growing and praying, it is still a very slow sanctification process that might never be attained. But if it was attained, it would not be from our own strength.
So Jesus was capable of sinning and would have sinned if not from the help of God as Jesus was 100% human.
Where Jesus was 100% God, was that he could still be praised. Only God deserved praise, and Jesus accepted praise. Though Jesus always returned the glory to the Father. So when you praised Jesus, it was like praising royalty. When you praise royalty, the king is ultimately praised. Jesus was 100% royal or God in his blood/heritage/lineage. Jesus also forgave since, which only God can do, He was 100% God in his authority. He had royal or God authority to forgive sin. As far as the other miracles, there are no verses ( I am aware of) that says He did it of His own power, as humans don’t have power. What Humans did have, was authority (if God decided to give them authority) He gave Moses authority over the seas when he parted them, He gave Jesus authority of the seas and winds when He calmed them. He gave some of Jesus’ disciples authority over spirits and sicknesses. Though since only Jesus had God lineage, only Jesus received authority to forgive sins.
Matt 28:18 T"hen Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. "
Now that I have clarified that and categorized that, can you agree with all/most of what I say?
If not, that is ok. You have spoken truths of the important things. It is ok to disagree with less important things.
Claiming that I did not read something, just because I am not coming to the same conclusion you are is insulting and unnecessary. But perhaps that was a rhetorical statement made in frustration?
I just enjoy to understand God more clearly and thoroughly, which allow me to praise Him more deeply. But know I don’t just go along with a doctrine because it is in a denomination or what I have always been told. If I can’t see scripture/logic supporting it, I will try my best to get to the truth. But living it is more important than just knowing it, and far more difficult. My thoughts I have now did not come from me sitting down one day and coming up with this, nor from reading the Bible once and setting my thoughts in stone. I like to be challenged and learn and grow and develope a better understanding of God So if I am frustrating so much you are causing you to resort to anger/insults, please let me know and I will stop responding.
Very cool, thanks for sharing that.