Egyptian loanwords in the Torah

[St.Roymond]

@Terry_Sampson

Egyptologist Presents Very Strong Evidence for a REAL Exodus

Kind of a weak video; too meandering and unfocused. The abandonment of Avaris was probably the most potent point.

@Terry_Sampson

https://youtu.be/_Sd1PBLn41w?si=UNX877m1ZiofLPJG

That one reminded me of a guy who maintained that the Egyptians had outposts within sight of each other and a “quick-response force” that could have stopped the Israelites. Such a chain of outposts and that force wouldn’t have been worth the effort of supporting for the simple reason that no one went that way except nomads.

[Bill_II]

@bharatjj

I would like to draw your kind attention that there is no egypt in pre.exodus bible.

Did you miss this?

@St.Roymond

Go back before the Exodus several centuries and mitsr or mizr is the Egyptian word for their land; mitsrayim is the plural and used because Egypt was actually two lands, upper and lower Egypt – so it’s also an Egyptian word for Egypt.

[St.Roymond]

@Bill_II

@bharatjj

I would like to draw your kind attention that there is no egypt in pre.exodus bible.

Did you miss this?

He’s arguing about specific vocabulary. He wants “mizraim” to not be Egypt so he can push his nonsense about the Exodus coming from India.

[Bill_II]

@St.Roymond

He’s arguing about specific vocabulary. He wants “mizraim” to not be Egypt so he can push his nonsense about the Exodus coming from India.

I am well aware of his “unique” ideas. We had a rather long discussion across several other threads. His main thrust is to prove all religions, or perhaps ideas about God, came from India.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@St.Roymond

Go back before the Exodus several centuries and mitsr or mizr is the Egyptian word for their land; mitsrayim is the plural and used because Egypt was actually two lands, upper and lower Egypt – so it’s also an Egyptian word for Egypt.

Show me one example of misr in Egypt before 1500 bce.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

I am well aware of his “unique” ideas. We had a rather long discussion across several other threads

Yes Bill. But can you show me misr in Egypt before 1500 be? RE.SEARCH means re searching the info. Repeating the consensus and presenting it as TRUTH is not research.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

I request all to discuss noonan. Please take that forward.

[St.Roymond]

@bharatjj

Repeating the consensus and presenting it as TRUTH is not research.

Neither is making stuff up with no support, only personal speculation – though at least the consensus has scholarship behind it.

I don’t think anyone here is interested in playing your game.

[Terry_Sampson]

https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/37989/when-was-khemet-renamed-to-misr

The Origin of the name of EGYPT

[Bill_II]

@bharatjj

But can you show me misr in Egypt before 1500 be?

Hard to do when they were using hieroglyphs back then.

@bharatjj

I request all to discuss noonan.

What is there to discuss? I accept his conclusion.

Three salient points emerge from the above discussion. First, the exodus and wilderness traditions contain significantly higher proportions of Egyptian terminology than the rest of the Hebrew Bible, proportions comparable to the high proportions of Old Iranian terminology of the books of Esther and Ezra–Nehemiah that reflect foreign influence. Second, the exodus and wilderness traditions contain significantly higher proportions of Egyptian terminology than other Northwest Semitic texts, with the exception of Imperial Aramaic texts that exhibit intense Egyptian contact. Third, at least some of the Egyptian loanwords found in the exodus and wilderness narratives were borrowed during the Late Bronze Age, and it is likely that many of the other loanwords also were borrowed then.

And any alternative explanation you propose has to explain the distribution of Egyptian loan words in the Hebrew Bible.

[Bill_II]

Thanks Terry for the re-search.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

This link supports my view entirely.

[rsewell (All Truth is God's Truth)]

@bharatjj

The earliest evidence of this name anywhere outside the Bible is 1400 bce after the exodus.

@bharatjj

Show me one example of misr in Egypt before 1500 bce.

@bharatjj

can you show me misr in Egypt before 1500 be?

If this unsupported assertion is true, and the doubtful case is accepted that the Torah sources preceded other references, what difference does it make? If all ancient Semitic languages referred to Egypt as some version of mitsrayim, we are done. It is not as if people back then would have just up and switched around the name of the world’s most enduring civilization.

@bharatjj

Repeating the consensus and presenting it as TRUTH is not research.

Some ideas are so out there that, outside of having curiosity piqued, there is no obligation to research before dismissing. Being open minded does not mean entertaining every vacuous pet theory. The location of Egypt is not just a matter of consensus, but is a trivial fact.

[Bill_II]

@bharatjj

This link supports my view entirely.

Not seeing it. The support that is.

@bharatjj

But can you show me misr in Egypt before 1500 be?

Misr is the Arabic name for Egypt, and so it’s use by Egyptians as the name for Egypt probably dates to the Arab conquest of Egypt in the mid 7th century (~640AD).

So you are demanding we show you the Arabic name for Egypt before the language even existed? Hard to do. Or are you going to argue the Arab people didn’t know where Egypt was in addition to the Hebrew people?

Edit to add:
Bharat you have had over a year to solve this problem with your theory and it appears you have failed to make any progress. I have to admire your determination but don’t you think it is time to throw in the towel?

[St.Roymond]

@Bill_II

So you are demanding we show you the Arabic name for Egypt before the language even existed?

The root goes back before Arabic; that’s just one of the Semitic languages that used it; it’s found all the way back to before the period of the judges (and not just in Hebrew).

[Bill_II]

@rsewell

Being open minded does not mean entertaining every vacuous pet theory.

Keep your mind open, but not so open that your brain falls out.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

@Bill_II

Bharat you have had over a year to solve this problem with your theory and it appears you have failed to make any progress. I have to admire your determination but don’t you think it is time to throw in the towel?

Bill, the year isn’t wasted. And, I assure you your brain will not fall out–yes there would be much pain in realigning it. The difficulty is that you folks are unwilling to compare. It is like standing on an island and saying there is no land beyond because for 3500 years we have only seen the island. I beseech you that please look with an open mind. Rest assure that you will develop much more confidence in historicity and inerrancy of the Holy Bible.

Elohim Creative Power is “Br”.= Brahman

Adan was the first man.= Swayambhu Manu was self created.

Eve means life.= Shatarupa or Tanu means life.

Cain means spear.=Indra means spear.

Abel has connection with vapour.= Vritra has connection with water.

Noach is written as Manowach.= Manu.

Arphaxad.= Ikshwaku.

Shelach means to sprout.= Prithu milked the earth.

Eber means the region beyond.=Sagar expanded the sea.

Peleg means channel.= Bhagirath made channels of the river.

Reu.=Raghu.

Serug.=Shighrag.

Nahor.= Nahusa.

Terah.= Dasaratha.

Abram.=Rama

Sarah.= Sita.

Haran means mountaineer.= Bharata means mountaineer.

Lot.= Lakshmana.

Amram means exalted people.= Vasudeva means excellent people.

Jochebed = Jehovah is glory.= Devaki divine celestial.

Moses was dark.= Krishna was dark.

Aaron= Balarama.

Egyptian Loanwords are Consistent with Exodus from India

The Evidence for Egypt

The evidence of language for the Jews stay in Egypt comes from Egyptian loanwords borrowed in the Hebrew language. Benjamin J. Noonan has found 0.64% Egyptian loanwords in the period from of Exodus and Numbers of 40 years [11]. Noonan also found that the Hebrew language contained 0.62% Persian loanwords from Esther and Ezra-Nehemiah period from 485 to 424 BCE of 61 years. He concluded that the similar percentages established that the Jews spent these 40 years in Egypt-Sinai-Israel area.

Problems with Evidence for Egypt

The Hebrews stayed 400 years in Egypt. The period covered in Persia in the books of Esther and Ezra-Nehemiah was 485 to 424 BCE or 61 years. (Noonan Page 66). The borrowings should show some proportionality to the period of stay. Noonan limits himself to the 40 years of wilderness and finds 0.64% borrowings, or 0.016% per year; and 0.62% from Esther and Ezra-Nehemiah period of 61 years or 0.010 % per year which is comparable. But this assumes that the borrowings were made only in the Exodus-Wilderness narratives and not in Genesis which covers their stay of 400. Thus, proportionally, much larger Egyptian borrowings would have taken place from Egyptian.

This is important because according to another study by Noonan, Egyptian loans mainly appear in the Joseph narrative in Gen 37-50 and Exodus. Damien F. Mackey says that “the Pentateuch was absolutely saturated with Egyptian not only for the periods associated with Egypt, most notably the Joseph narrative including Israel’s sojourn in Egypt, but even for the periods customarily associated with Babylonia (presumably the Flood account and the Babel incident.” Thus, it cannot be alluded, as Noonan does, that the borrowings took place in the Exodus and Wilderness narratives alone.

Evidence from Egypt is consistent with Exodus from India

Noonan says that these words “were borrowed relatively early, probably sometime between the Middle Kingdom and the Ramesside Period (ca. 2000-1300 BC) Page 17). The Hebrews started on Exodus 1446 BCE and reached Israel 1406 BCE. Israel was under the control of the Egyptians at that time (Ref?). This would provide about 100 years of contact that would be comparable to the 61 years in Persia and would better explain the 0.62% loanwords.

Noonan works with common names and remains silent on proper names. Hoffmeier gives seven names borrowed from Egyptan in his abstract: Aaron (possibly), Ahira, Assir, Hur, Merari, Miriam, Moses, and Phineas [18]. Among these, other than Aaron and Moses, all others are tertiary to the main Biblical narrative. In comparison we find 22 proper names to be common with the Hindu narratives:

There are also Tamil loanwords. There are suggestions that the Indus language moved to South India. Although the Tamil loanwords are said to be related to trade in the later period but this needs more detailed investigation [20].

Even if the borrowing from Egyptian is established these may not deny the borrowings from the Indus Valley because the Egyptians may have borrowed from the Indus Valley. It cannot be assumed that the words borrowed were necessarily original Egyptian words and not, in turn, borrowed from the Indus Valley [See [24] for borrowings from Egyptian at third millennium BCE].

Lastly, the very idea that loanwords are proof of physical location is questionable. Words can be transmitted through cultural exchange [13, 23, 24.5].

The Jones, The Complete Chronology of Ezra, Nehemiah, and Esther Fully Explained, The Spirited Nature, 2021

Benjamin J. Noonan, Non-Semitic Loanwords in the Hebrew Bible: A Lexicon of Language

review of Benjamin J. Noonan, Non-Semitic Loanwords in the Hebrew Bible: A Lexicon of Language Contact (which I have not seen), Ivrit Student.

Biblical Roots of Certain Pagan Myths and Philosophies

[Terry_Sampson]

@bharatjj

The difficulty is that you folks are unwilling to compare. It is like standing on an island and saying there is no land beyond because for 3500 years we have only seen the island. I beseech you that please look with an open mind. Rest assure that you will develop much more confidence in historicity and inerrancy of the Holy Bible.

• Brother, I’m going to try to say this as gently as I can:
  When pigs fly meaning in hindi | When pigs fly means | Hindi meaning of when pigs fly
• First, allow me to point out that your little “analogy”, although not so subtle, is fundamentally wrong and therefore, not only not persuasive but it’s also deceptive, somewhat like the serpent’s assurance to Eve in the Garden of Eden. The best appeals for “an open mind” promise something in exchange. But the question is, “What kind of refund policy do you offer, if a customer’s confidence in the historicity and inerrancy of the Holy Bible doesn’t increase?”
• Second, since you and I are, at this moment, in a sharing mood, I would like to share with you a remarkable theory that just occurred to me, one that I am sure must have been inspired by God and worthy of your attention. My theory assumes first that you and I both came into being through the same physical means, albeit in two very different locations and at two different instants. Second, I have perceived, in a picture of you and a Youtube that I happened to have seen in which you appeared, that–differences aside–you and I have remarkable similarities: two eyes, two ears, a nose, a mouth, a head, etc. etc.
  • In my theory, I hope to show that. because our developments, i.e. yours in your mother’s womb and mine in my mother’s womb, were in extremely high probability alike, and because our two separate physical natures are so similar, therefore, either I must be an Asian Indian male or you are an Anglo-Saxon American, and, consequently, you and I must be brothers from different parents.
  • What do you think? Rather persuasive, I think.
• Third, I noted the link you posted at the end of your post: i.e. “Biblical Roots of Certain Pagan Myths and Philosophies”. A very quick look at the other end of that link struck me as reminiscent of a very popular book, The Pagan Christ: Recovering the Lost Light, written by Tom Harpur, a former Anglican priest, journalist and professor of Greek and New Testament at the University of Toronto, which supports the Christ myth theory.
  • According to Harpur’s theory, “the New Testament shares a large number of similarities with ancient Egyptian and other pagan religions, that early Church leaders fabricated a literal and human Jesus based on ancient myths and that we should return to an inclusive and universal religion where the spirit of Christ or Christos lives within each of us”
• Now, I don’t know about you, but the powerful and seductive allure of Harpur’s theory is as old as Eden’s Serpent, IMO. It so happens that a 19th century Mormon came up with a couplet that I think describes the allure of Harpur’s theory–and, I think, the theory that you “offer” in your post to which this post responds:
  • “As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become.” [President Lorenzo Snow, fifth president of the LDS Church].
• But please, don’t let anything I say discourage you.

[bharatjj (Let the Truth Out)]

Sad. Let it rest here. My purpose of this thread has been accomplished by st.roymonds initial comments.

[St.Roymond]

@bharatjj

The difficulty is that you folks are unwilling to compare.

No – and you know it. The fact is that we have compared and are laughing. Most of your supposed matched names aren’t credible in the least,

@bharatjj

Even if the borrowing from Egyptian is established these may not deny the borrowings from the Indus Valley because the Egyptians may have borrowed from the Indus Valley.

Yeah, make stuff up, that’s a good way to go.

Your game is tiresome. Bill is right – you’re just posting the same fantasy material as before.