Hi Christy,
Actually, I’m new here today and find the format a little busy. Not sure what I was replying to because your reply doesn’t make sense to me either. Thx for your patience.
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There is a bit of a learning curve, but when you get used to it, it’s actually pretty good for in-depth, multi-participant conversations. If you hit the reply button directly under someone’s post, it notifies them, and you can hit the arrow next to their avatar that shows at the top of your response and it will bring you to a thread of all the replies in that chain. If you hit the reply button at the bottom of the page, only the person who posted the OP gets a notification. It helps people follow the conversation if you select text you are interacting with from other people’s posts and hit the gray quote button that appears. You can do this multiple times in a post and quote multiple users. Clicking on the up arrow in a quoted part in a post will bring you to the original.
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An Orthodox Jew pointed the error out to me. I did my due diligence and, when I discovered that the author of the book of Hebrews had relied on the Septuagint, I surmised that he probably was not familiar with the orally-transmitted, Hebrew text, and concluded for myself that Hebrews 11:21 is an “error”, not a “difference of interpretation”. The issue revolves around the non-masoretic Hebrew word המטה: Do the letters spell ha-mattaw (i.e. rod/staff) or ha-mittaw (bed)? Jews, centuries later, using masoretic vowel points decided that the authoritative spelling was mittaw (bed). The existing Septuagint translation indicates that it was decided that the authoritative spelling must have been mattaw (rod/staff) and the Greek version reads (rod/staff).
English-language translators, translating Genesis 47:31 from Hebrew into English give the Masoretic word athority, but translating Hebrews 11:21 from Greek into English give the Septuagint authority, with the odd result that the same event is described in the Old Testament as “Jacob bowed at the head of his bed” and in the New Testament as “Jacob bowed on/over the top of his rod/staff.” Note the difference below in a multitude of English translations of each verse.
Genesis 47:31.
[KJ21] And he said, “Swear unto me.” And he swore unto him. And Israel bowed himself upon the bed’s head.
[ASV] And he said, Swear unto me: and he sware unto him. And Israel bowed himself upon the bed’s head.
[AMP] Then he said, “Swear to me [that you will do it].” So he swore to him. Then Israel (Jacob) bowed in worship at the head of the bed.
[AMPC] Then Jacob said, Swear to me [that you will do it]. And he swore to him. And Israel bowed himself upon the head of the bed.
[BRG] And he said, Swear unto me. And he sware unto him. And Israel bowed himself upon the bed’s head.
[CSB] And Jacob said, “Swear to me.” So Joseph swore to him. Then Israel bowed in thanks at the head of his bed.
[CEB] Israel said, “Give me your word!” and Joseph gave his word. Then Israel slumped down at the head of the bed.
[CJB] He said, “Swear it to me,” and he swore to him. Then Isra’el bowed down at the head of his bed.
[CEV] “Will you give me your word?” Jacob asked. “Yes, I will,” Joseph promised. After this, Jacob bowed down and prayed at the head of his bed.
[DARBY] And he said, Swear to me; and he swore to him. And Israel worshipped on the bed’s head.
[DRA] And he said: Swear then to me. And as he was swearing, Israel adored God, turning to the bed’s head.
[ERV] Then Jacob said, “Make a vow to me.” And Joseph vowed to him that he would do this. Then Israel laid his head back down on the bed.
[EHV] He said, “Swear to me,” and he swore to him. Israel bowed himself on the head post of the bed.
[ESV] And he said, “Swear to me”; and he swore to him. Then Israel bowed himself upon the head of his bed.
[ESVUK] And he said, “Swear to me”; and he swore to him. Then Israel bowed himself upon the head of his bed.
[EXB] Then Jacob said, “·Promise [Swear to] me.” And ·Joseph promised [he swore to] him that he would do this [50:7–14]. Then Israel worshiped as he leaned on the top of his ·walking stick [staff; or bed].
[GNV] Then he said, swear unto me. And he sware unto him. And Israel worshipped towards the bed’s head.
[GW] Swear to me,” he said. So Joseph swore to him. Then Israel bowed down in prayer with his face at the head of his bed.
[GNT] Jacob said, “Make a vow that you will.” Joseph made the vow, and Jacob gave thanks there on his bed.
[HCSB] And Jacob said, “Swear to me.” So Joseph swore to him. Then Israel bowed in thanks at the head of his bed.
[ICB] Then Jacob said, “Promise me.” And Joseph promised him that he would do this. Then Israel worshiped as he leaned on the top of his walking stick.
[ISV] “Promise me,” Israel insisted. So Joseph promised. Then Israel collapsed on his bed.
[JUB] And he said, Swear unto me. And he swore unto him. Then Israel bowed himself upon the bed’s head.
[KJV] And he said, Swear unto me. And he sware unto him. And Israel bowed himself upon the bed’s head.
[AKJV] And he said, Swear unto me. And he sware unto him. And Israel bowed himself upon the bed’s head.
[LEB] Then he said, “Swear to me.” And he swore to him. Then Israel bowed himself on the head of the bed.
[TLB] “Swear that you will do it,” Jacob insisted. And Joseph did. Soon afterwards Jacob took to his bed.
[MSG] Israel said, “Promise me.” Joseph promised. Israel bowed his head in submission and gratitude from his bed.
[MEV] And he said, “Swear to me,” and he swore to him. Then Israel bowed himself at the head of his bed.
[NOG] “Swear to me,” he said. So Joseph swore to him. Then Israel bowed down in prayer with his face at the head of his bed.
[NABRE] But his father demanded, “Swear it to me!” So Joseph swore to him. Then Israel bowed at the head of the bed.
[NASB] And he said, “Swear to me.” So he swore to him. Then Israel bowed in worship at the head of the bed.
[NASB1995] He said, “Swear to me.” So he swore to him. Then Israel bowed in worship at the head of the bed.
[NCV] Then Jacob said, “Promise me.” And Joseph promised him that he would do this. Then Israel worshiped as he leaned on the top of his walking stick.
[NET] Jacob said, “Swear to me that you will do so.” So Joseph gave him his word. Then Israel bowed down at the head of his bed.
[NIRV] “Give me your word that you will do it,” Jacob said. So Joseph gave him his word. And Israel worshiped God as he leaned on the top of his walking stick.
[NIV] “Swear to me,” he said. Then Joseph swore to him, and Israel worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
[NIVUK] ‘Swear to me,’ he said. Then Joseph swore to him, and Israel worshipped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
[NKJV] Then he said, “Swear to me.” And he swore to him. So Israel bowed himself on the head of the bed.
[NLV] Jacob said, “Promise me.” So Joseph gave him his promise. Then Israel bowed in worship at the head of the bed.
[NLT] “Swear that you will do it,” Jacob insisted. So Joseph gave his oath, and Jacob bowed humbly at the head of his bed.
[NRSV] And he said, “Swear to me”; and he swore to him. Then Israel bowed himself on the head of his bed.
[NRSVA] And he said, ‘Swear to me’; and he swore to him. Then Israel bowed himself on the head of his bed.
[NRSVACE] And he said, ‘Swear to me’; and he swore to him. Then Israel bowed himself on the head of his bed.
[NRSVCE] And he said, “Swear to me”; and he swore to him. Then Israel bowed himself on the head of his bed.
[RSV] And he said, “Swear to me”; and he swore to him. Then Israel bowed himself upon the head of his bed.
[RSVCE] And he said, “Swear to me”; and he swore to him. Then Israel bowed himself upon the head of his bed.
[TLV] “Swear to me,” he said. So he swore to him. Then Israel bowed down in worship on the head of his staff.
[VOICE] Jacob: Swear to me. And Joseph took the oath. Then, Israel bowed down at the head of his bed.
[WEB] Israel said, “Swear to me,” and he swore to him. Then Israel bowed himself on the bed’s head.
[WYC] And Israel said, Therefore swear thou to me; and when Joseph swore, Israel turned to the head of the bed, and worshipped God. (And Jacob said, And so swear thou to me; and when Joseph swore, Jacob turned to the head of the bed, and worshipped God.)
[YLT] and he saith, `Swear to me;’ and he sweareth to him, and Israel boweth himself on the head of the bed.
Hebrews 11:21.
[KJ21] By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph and worshiped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
[ASV] By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
[AMP] By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and bowed in worship, leaning on the top of his staff.
[AMPC] [Prompted] by faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons and bowed in prayer over the top of his staff.
[BRG] By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
[CSB] By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and he worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
[CEB] By faith Jacob blessed each of Joseph’s sons as he was dying and bowed in worship over the head of his staff.
[CJB] By trusting, Ya‘akov, when he was dying, blessed each of Yosef’s sons, leaning on his walking-stick as he bowed in prayer .
[CEV] Later, when Jacob was about to die, he leaned on his walking stick and worshiped. Then because of his faith he blessed each of Joseph’s sons.
[DARBY] By faith Jacob [when] dying blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshipped on the top of his staff.
[DLNT] By faith Jacob, while dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and “worshiped [leaning] on the top of his staff ”
[DRA] By faith Jacob dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and adored the top of his rod.
[ERV] And Jacob, also because he had faith, blessed each one of Joseph’s sons. He did this while he was dying, leaning on his rod and worshiping God.
[EHV] By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons and worshipped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
[ESV] By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff.
[ESVUK] By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff.
[EXB] It was by faith that Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each one of Joseph’s sons. Then he ·worshiped [ or bowed in reverent worship] as he leaned on the top of his ·walking stick [staff].
[GNV] By faith Jacob when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph, and leaning on the end of his staff, worshipped God.
[GW] While Jacob was dying, faith led him to bless each of Joseph’s sons. He leaned on the top of his staff and worshiped God.
[GNT] It was faith that made Jacob bless each of the sons of Joseph just before he died. He leaned on the top of his walking stick and worshiped God.
[HCSB] By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and he worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
[ICB] It was by faith that Jacob blessed each one of Joseph’s sons. He did this while he was dying. Then he worshiped as he leaned on the top of his walking stick.
[ISV] By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons “and worshipped while leaning on the top of his staff.”
[PHILLIPS] It was by faith that Isaac gave Jacob and Esau his blessing, for his words dealt with what should happen in the future. It was by faith that the dying Jacob blessed each of Joseph’s sons as he bowed in prayer over his staff. It was by faith that Joseph on his death-bed spoke of the exodus of the Israelites, and gave confident orders about the disposal of his own mortal remains.
[JUB] By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph, and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
[KJV] By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
[AKJV] By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
[LEB] By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
[TLB] By faith Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph’s two sons as he stood and prayed, leaning on the top of his cane.
[MSG] By an act of faith, Jacob on his deathbed blessed each of Joseph’s sons in turn, blessing them with God’s blessing, not his own—as he bowed worshipfully upon his staff.
[MEV] By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and worshipped while leaning on the top of his staff.
[MOUNCE] By faith Jacob, while dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and bowed in worship, leaning on the top of his staff.
[NOG] While Jacob was dying, faith led him to bless each of Joseph’s sons. He leaned on the top of his staff and worshiped God.
[NABRE] By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and “bowed in worship, leaning on the top of his staff.”
[NASB] By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
[NASB1995] By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
[NCV] It was by faith that Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each one of Joseph’s sons. Then he worshiped as he leaned on the top of his walking stick.
[NET] By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and worshiped as he as he leaned on his staff.
[NIRV] Jacob had faith. So he blessed each of Joseph’s sons. He blessed them when he was dying. Because of his faith he worshiped God. Jacob worshiped as he leaned on the top of his walking stick.
[NIV] By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
[NIVUK] By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshipped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
[NKJV] By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
[NLV] Because Jacob had faith, he said that good would come to each of Joseph’s sons as he was dying. He used his walking stick to hold him up as he prayed to God.
[NLT] It was by faith that Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons and bowed in worship as he leaned on his staff.
[NMB] By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph, and bowed himself toward the top of his sceptre.
[NRSV] By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, “bowing in worship over the top of his staff.”
[NRSVA] By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, ‘bowing in worship over the top of his staff.’
[NRSVACE] By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, ‘bowing in worship over the top of his staff.’
[NRSVCE] By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, “bowing in worship over the top of his staff.”
[NTE] It was by faith that, when Jacob was dying, he blessed the two sons of Joseph, and ‘worshipped, leaning on the top of his staff.
[TPT] Jacob worshiped in faith’s reality at the end of his life, and leaning upon his staff he imparted a prophetic blessing upon each of Joseph’s sons.
[RGT] By faith, Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph worshipping at the end of his staff.
[RSV] By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff.
[RSVCE] By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff.
[TLV] By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and he bowed in worship while leaning on the top of his staff.
[VOICE] By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed the sons of his son Joseph, bowing in worship as he leaned upon his staff.
[WEB] By faith, Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
[WE] Jacob believed God. When he was dying, he blessed Joseph’s two sons. He leaned on his walking stick as he worshipped God.
[WYC] By faith Jacob dying blessed all the sons of Joseph, and honoured the highness of his staff [and honoured the highness of his rod].
[YLT] by faith Jacob dying – each of the sons of Joseph did bless, and did bow down upon the top of his staff,
Romans persecuted the Jews. The Christians who were sporadically persecuted outside of Rome were all Jews. In Rome they were persecuted, thrown to the lions, cut up by gladiators for public performances AFTER Nero set fire to Rome and blamed the Christians for it.
Paul was the one outside of Roman that persecuted Christians but again they were all Jews. And again you have to ask questions because what is written doesn’t tally up. Paul on some accounts was supposed to be a Gentile, with Roman citizenship. On other accounts he was Jewish and a Roman citizen… And in all of these claimed he was a Pharisee. He said he got his orders from the High Priests in the Temple to go and round up Jews who were Christians for execution. Ummmm a Pharisee in collusion with the Sadducees. They were supposed to be enemies.
BUT if true then we need to also consider that the High Priests were client ruler of the Romans. So the whole of the story of Paul comes into question. If he was really working for the Romans, then the conversion story was so so so convenient.
He was on the road to Damascus,
had the vision of Jesus supposedly,
became blinded
and Ananias one of the High Priests gave them a wipe and scabs fell off his eyes and onto the ground (only time in not only human history but mammalian history)
and he was converted! So he too became an apostle. Had to happen if he was going to tell the other apostles what’s what.
Then he went to Greece to convert the heathens.
Two thirds of the NT was written by Paul. You reckon the Romans were not whispering in his ears. And it all happened just as the Romans needed to prepare to go and destroy the Holy Land and the temple and massacre the Jews.
There is evidence enough if one reads between the lines.
I believe there was a prophet, messiah, who lived in Judea and stood against the Jews, maybe he was even a Zealot. But the story of bodily resurrection to go to Heaven doesn’t sit well with me. Also the idea that all of us are in the same bag because all have sinned and need a sacrifice to clean us up also doesn’t seem reasonable to me. There were Christian sects at the time that believe that one needs to do good works and not simply believe in Jesus and the Resurrection. What happened to them. They vanished.
The Romans, who had done the worst atrocities needed to be seen and accepted, forgiven and even helped. Paul did that with finish. And if one considers the history and the fact that the Romans. wanted to crush the Jews and do it without risking the Eastern Provinces, then it is no doubt in my mind that the Romans had a hand in what Paul said and taught and wrote as Epistles, which were later to become a significant part of the NT. He finished his ministry in time for Titus and Vespasian’s arrival in the Jewish lands… What a coincidence.
However, footnotes to Gen. 47:31 often highlight the issue. Of course KJV-onlyists or Masoretic-onlyists or Vulgate-onlyists or the like won’t be happy about pointing out problems with their positions. There are a number of points where the New Testament quotes the Septuagint where there’s a deviation from the Masoretic. Whether the Septuagint is more likely to match the original at those spots or not has to be carefully considered for each case. English translations accept Septuagint readings over the Masoretic to varying degrees; for the Pentateuch we can also compare the Samaritan version, which would probably be even less popular with strict Orthodox Jews; and there are the variations found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, other early translations and commentaries (such as the Targums) or between copies within a version. But none of the variations quoted in the New Testament are particularly significant textually - the same idea is conveyed, even where the Septuagint is paraphrasing rather than translating. How do you count the number of Jacob’s descendants going to Egypt? Is Cainan in the list of postdiluvian patriarchs? Did Tobit’s dog wag its tail? Who cares? Someone who treats the text as more important than the message does, but that’s their problem.
You have a very, very vivid religious imagination. No wonder you believe you were reincarnated.
It is not about imagination. It is about using the grey matter upstairs. There are things, big things that have to be overlooked to go down the path you want to go down.
Reincarnation is real. I recall many aspects of my past lives. Not imagination. I know the difference.
There is a life tradition and a death tradition in Christianity (J.D. Crossan, The Birth of Christianity). The life tradition is gnostic and its heaven is the kingdom of God on earth, its disciples make the self-sacrifice and will not “taste” death.
The death tradition is the resurrection of the body, you go to heaven or you go to hell, bodily, after death.
If you observe the religion’s tenets, you’re working both traditions. You’re working the life tradition and the death tradition, so if the resurrection of the body doesn’t pan out, you’ve had a great life building the kingdom of God on earth, you’ve loved and been loved, and have no regrets.
You have to make up your mind what to do on your own.
None of this disproves mine conclusion above.None.
Prove it.
How do i know that the writers didnt edited the Original; Mark to convey that story?How do i know theyve twisted the message to the ressurection and the message actually was something along the line of “human ressurection” meaning how we get out of the pit on this life and climb to happiness lets say.
You’ve reversed the burden of proof. If you claim that the story is edited, the burden of proof is on you to show it has. Otherwise, that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
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Actually, the Gnostics saw the body as evil and something they were freed from in the afterlife.
beagle lady wrote:
“Actually, the Gnostics saw the body as evil and something they were freed from in the afterlife.”
Do you see a major difference between what I wrote and what you wrote above? I don’t.
Here is what you just wrote in different words:
“A man who has made the self-sacrifice, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia’s definition of heaven, is in God’s presence: “In heaven, however, no creature will stand between God and the soul. He himself will be the immediate object of its vision. Scripture and theology tell us that the blessed see God face to face.”
Note: the sacrificed “creature” is the corporeal self, the body. The soul is wholly spirit.”
From: The Biblical Significance of Melchizedek, Richard Faussette
Do you see that the Church writes the same thing you wrote only with more gravity and less judgmental language?
“No creature will stand between God and the soul.” It doesn’t say the body is evil. It says the body must be sacrificed in order for a man or woman to become wholly spirit. Only then do the blessed see God face to face. The gnosis, also called the self-sacrifice, is at the core of all the major Eurasian religions.
Logion 1 of the Gospel of Thomas reads: “Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not “taste” death.”
If you make the self sacrifice, you are free of the body’s desires, and become wholly spirit, so when your body dies, you will not “taste” death since you are already “wholly” spirit and have previously and willfully given the body’s desires up.
“Those who say that the lord died first and then rose up are in error, for he rose up first and then died.”
That is a description of the gnosis or life tradition from the Gospel of Philip in the gnostic Nag Hammadi library.
I do&bnsp;
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