You said the garden story “we now know that not to be true” - how do you know this, or, how does anyone know this?
There is evidence there is no garden story? Or is it believed by faith that the garden story is not true?
Luke, Paul and Jude mention Adam - are these guys were wrong? Or, what they wrote is not God-breathed? Not from the Holy Spirit?
That Isaiah had a different literary style than Moses or Daniel is apparent.
But the argument put forth is ‘literary style’?
Can the same argument be made about the virgin birth or the deity of Christ?
Or to put it more bluntly, is it possible that a person may choose to go the route of “literary style” to disagree with the virgin birth or the deity of Christ when what it came down to is that they simply didn’t want to believe it was true?
Please note, and I didn’t elaborate enough to explain my position (and that’s my fault) I said that when reading Scripture and interpreting, you BEGIN with literal.
Obviously there are parables, metaphors, types in Scripture.
But when interpreting Scripture, jumping immediately to metaphors or types or parables is not what the Lord Jesus did - He begin with literal and then move from there.
Some read about the virgin birth and go straight to ‘metaphor’ - this is an easy cop out for those who simply chose not to believe it; “I don’t want to believe the virgin birth is true, so, I’ll just believe in my heart its make-believe.”
No, with the virgin birth the reader is to begin with literal, but if a passage - any passage - doesn’t make sense with a literal rendering, you move on from there.
Jonah is fictional?
Then the sky’s the limit. Anything in Scripture could be fictional. Because someone felt like it was fictional.
I apologize ahead of time for my pointedness in my questions here, I’m not trying to be intentionally offensive…
But back to Jonah - where does it say that the ship itself was in fear?
And when the book of Jonah was written long after - was it not written perfectly by the Holy Spirit?
And you said Jonah walked 2000 miles? Where does it say that? Because it doesn’t say how he traveled, by caravan or horse or whatever - it must be concluded he walked?
And you said the same word for ‘fish’ is used in Genesis 1? Are you sure about that?
And that God is confronting Jonah’s emotions - God doesn’t have a right to do that?
And when the Lord meant by “not knowing their right hand from their left” - God wasn’t referring to their conscience, their understanding of right and wrong? - the Assyrians were so stupid they didn’t know what a chariot was or how to build temples or conquer other empires, or attempt to outsmart Jerusalem with persuasive speech?
There are metaphors and types and symbols - although when it comes to interpretation a person isn’t to straight-away jump right past literal because they felt like it.
But if Jesus spoke of Abraham and Lazarus in a story that was flat-out not true, never happened, then Jesus lied.
Hello Roger, thank you for your gracious post here.
However,
Luke, Paul and Jude mention Adam - were they wrong?
In Romans 5:19 it says man is made sinners, thanks to Adam…
If you’ve read my above posts in the last few days, you’ll notice I use Scripture to answer other people, that is, that’s part of my answer.
For when it comes to interpreting Scripture, it is the Lord Jesus who sets the example when debating the Pharisees. The Lord Jesus started from a position of ‘literal.’
Let me know what you think when you have a chance, Roger.
And thanks again for your post
It’s OK Charles. Even tho’ the Lukan quote is of John the Baptist : )
Even if we’d been there, native speakers, we’d have heard according to disposition.
And it wouldn’t have been what Jesus meant according to disposition.
Now my disposition is to believe the best of His.
You’re confusing writing styles ( the way a persons writes and speaks ) with literary genre. Take Klax. He writes very different than me. If we both coauthored something you would most likely be able to tell where he took over and wrote it. However, you would still be able to tell if we were writing a epic poem or a biography.
I agree, although the question is, “when God justifies the sinner, is it a just justification, or does God somehow sets aside His position as perfect Judge by unjustly justifying sinners?”
My disposition is to also believe in the best of His - in the context that I’m not getting what I justly deserve, since the Lord Jesus died in my place, and that also He is Victor, His justice will reign in holiness…
The writing style concerning the text of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and Pharaoh and Joseph - these seem to be the same kind of writing style concerning Adam and Eve…
and hopefully no one here will reject that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Pharaoh and Joseph never existed but were ‘made up.’
Well how many chapters was dedicated to them. How many years did it span. How many unscientific events occurred within them?
Also could you tell me what’s specifically the same about the writings that make you think it’s the same genre?
One of the great things about the writings of Paul is that He says complicated things over and over in different words, making it difficult to twist his words without ignoring all the other ways he said it. In the case of verse 19 we have the Greek word κατεστάθησαν which is used only in one verse in the Bible and so we have no other verses for comparison. So you would be on very shaky ground to interpret this one word in a way that contradicts all the other ways Paul said this in verses 5:12-18. Paul is not writing this in so many ways so that you can pick and choose the one that is most convenient for what you want to believe. Just opposite, he is writing it in so many ways so people cannot get away with using his words in such a way to mean something entirely different than what he intends.
Indeed… if you judge others by their doctrine then I think you will be judged by your doctrine also.
Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
Of course I think my positions on doctrinal issues are the correct ones – that is why they are my position. But to bet my salvation on being correct on every one of those issues seems like a terribly foolish thing to me, no matter how smart and studious I may be – no thank you! I shall put my faith in the knowledge and goodness of God and not in something so flimsy and finite as my own understanding of the Bible, no matter how extensive it may be compared to other people with my masters of divinity degree from seminary.
I agree. When people knowingly do such a think they call into question whether they really believe in God at all, for it makes it look more like they use the word “God” as more of a tool of rhetoric for the purpose of manipulation and power.
Yes that is what the Jehovah Witnesses believe, and I think they are wrong. But heaven it not the prize in a game show for guessing the right answers to such questions. Even if I am right, it doesn’t mean I am going to heaven. Hell is full of people who were right. And even if a JW is wrong, it doesn’t mean he is going to hell. The Gnostic gospel of salvation by knowledge is also wrong. And even my understanding of THAT will not save me either.
Salvation DOES NOT come from understanding things. The world is FULL of people who understand only all too well that what they are doing is destroying themselves. That is the principle flaw in the liberal’s idea of solving problems by education. It doesn’t work. Understanding simply doesn’t have the power to make people change. It doesn’t mean education has no value – sometimes understanding does help. But enough? Dubious.
If a person claims their good works or sound doctrine is of sufficient merit to obtain eternal life, then I would tell them I think that they are wrong. But I most certainly would not usurp the role of God as the only judge to say that they are going to hell.
Romans 10:5 Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on the law shall live by it. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, “Who will ascend into heaven?” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
When you think you have a way of saying who goes to heaven and who goes to hell then you are falling into the error of legalism. It hardly matters whether your legalism is good works or sound dogma. The real problem in ether case is entitlement which is the opposite of faith. To live a life of faith is to do what is right for its own sake not looking for rewards or payback. I believe what I think is correct doctrine only because I think it is correct and not because I think it earns me anything at all. When asked in Matthew 19 what one can do to have eternal life, Jesus answered “with men this is impossible.” If you think salvation is one of your accomplishments in life, for whatever reason, then you make Jesus a liar.
Does the amount of material written matter? If it is 10 chapters or 1000, if it says there was an Abraham, and Isaac and Jacob, and Noah, and Adam and Eve - is 10 thousand chapters required to determine ‘consistency’? Why does amount matter?
What is the same is writing style. I don’t see the symbolism like in Revelation.
Is it your belief Moses wrote about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but someone else wrote about Adam and Eve and injected that writing into the Torah?
Yes. The amount of chapters and many other clues all go into correct interpretation and understanding the genre.
It’s used 4 times, although it is used twice in verse 19.
There are perhaps a dozen different Greek words for the word “made,” so understanding “made righteous” first in verse 19.
Union IN Christ will result in their being crucified, buried, raised, and seated with Christ, and also Becoming the righteousness of God in Him (1 Cor 5:21). If “made righteous” the same as “becoming the righteousness of God in Him” - then what can we surmise from this?
Do you believe Abraham and Noah existed?
I would agree with this.
This is what I’ll do. I’ll respond a little bit more, snd try to out some effort into a response or two and suggest some of the good books and blogs and authors that helped provide scholarly work into understanding these stories.
Then I’m withdrawing because I am only willing to spend a little bit of time discussing these things with people not interested in them. I believe my time is better spent on making posts on specific subjects and spending time talking with those in my church, my local congregation and those within the same Churches of Christ around the world, and with those who want to harmonize real science and theology. That alone takes to a few hours off work a week. It’s as far as I am willing to stretch myself .
But you agreed that those who did not believe Jesus is the “I AM” - they would perish in their sins.
Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe Jesus is the I AM.
I gave the example before from Luke 18; according to Christ, the tax collector went justified because of his Understanding of himself as a sinner - the Pharisee, who had a different Understanding, did not.
Understanding is important when it comes to salvation. Wrong beliefs with wrong understanding does affect one’s salvation, even those who will say “Lord, Lord, did we not perform miracles in Your Name?”
“Legalism” is attempting to obey the law of Moses to obtain justification - legalism is good-works salvation. I obviously reject this.
And many many have faith, but not a faith that saves. Even those who say “Lord, Lord - did we not perform miracles in Your Name?”
But if someone clearly has the wrong faith that will result in their not being justified, or in the case of Jehovah’s Witnesses, they will perish in their sins since they reject Jesus as the I AM - should I take the position “Ah, I shouldn’t approach them and talk with the hope they’ll repent, since that’s judging and I shouldn’t do that” - ?
Before I judge others, I have to judge myself. You quoted the words of the Lord yourself. Jesus also said “Judge with righteous judgement” - He didn’t say or teach “don’t judge at all.”
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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