So in what seens God is involved in our affairs? Also, do you implied that God was not involved in creating Solar system? Which can be quite special in its construction, see Why We Might Be Alone in the Universe.
shrug… same science as far as I am concerned. It changed in the twentieth century with the advent of quantum physics and chaotic dynamics. So technically my statement was not factually incorrect. I didn’t say that Deism came from the nineteenth century.
So nature is wrong? Irrational belief trumps it?
Yes you did.
Psalm 104 describes God as feeding the lions and ravens, as another example of animal death being a part of the Bible’s picture of God’s plan.
Obviously, what one thinks about the degree to which God is controlling all the relevant processes would correlate with one’s position on the spectrum of determinism, free will, Calvinism, and Armenianism. I doubt that we are predestined to settle those debates here; getting overly into those issues is likely to be somewhat tangential to the thread here.
Theology certainly does need to heed nature, as providing the basic data. But interpreting the data is often a challenge. Mass extinctions, predation, the vast age and size of the universe: all these provide vast variety. If one of God’s goals is producing diversity, these are effective ways to do so. Beyond the specific mentions of diversity of roles and types of people in the church, the Bible doesn’t give much to go on as to whether diversity is a particular goal, but it’s a plausible guess from the scientific data. In contrast, the idea that a goal is to have nothing unpleasant happen to any animal or person does not seem to be well-supported by the data.
Perhaps the kindergartners’ perception that Tyrannosaurus and crashing asteroids are wondrous parts of creation is more acute than the sentiments of many of their elders.
1 Like
I believe, God made several major adjustments to his plan for creation. For example in Genesis we find where it is estimated that God killed approximately 20 million people and saved only eight.
Gen 6:13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.
When I look at the complexity of modern man, I am totally amazed at the many biological systems it takes to keep us alive for a period of time.
I consider God a genius type scientist, who would spend a great deal of effort designing and testing each and every system. For example the circulatory, digestive, immune, muscular, nervous, reproductive, respiratory and skeletal systems.
Perhaps God learned a great deal from the dinosaurs concerning the skeletal system, continually using one version after another until modern man was developed and given an eternal soul.
Personally I see God as being very deliberate and methodical in creation for example we find in Job:
Job 38:4-7 "Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone— 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
God does not need to design or test anything. He’s been doing this from forever.
I too was raised believing this. However as I continue to study scriptures I cannot find where it promotes this logic. The following scriptures helped me to understand another scenario.
Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
What does it mean to be made in likeness?
Gen 6:5-6 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.
God himself regretted he had made human beings and his heart was deeply troubled. Have you thought of God in this light? Did the situation turn out as he expected?
Gen 11:5-8 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” 8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.
Notice the people settled in one place, and would not scatter all over the world. This did not please the Lord because they did not do what he expected. So He took action against them.
There are many more scriptures where God is either grieved or hoping or expecting a different outcome.
1 Like
Primitive anthropomorphism. You were raised right, what went wrong?
Sorry can’t find that in the Bible.
Er, it’s full of it. As is God the Designer, God the Tester.
@paleomalacologist David,
Jesus sought out people different from Himself, fishermen like Peter and John, tax collectors, like Matthew, prostitutes, Samarians, Canaanites, Gentiles, the poor, sick, and outcast. even Pharisees. God’s People was founded on diversity, just as is God’s world .
All other worldviews are based on uniformity. Only the Trinity is based on Unity in Diversity
and is in conformity with God’s world as found in John 1.
Yes, there is certainly a promotion of diversity in the church. Extrapolating that to creation in general is more tenuous but plausible.
An omniscient God neither regrets not expects something as he knows what is going to happen. It is the limitation in our understanding / expression. The Lord might have lamented having made humans but not regretted it in the sense of wishing he had not made them as he know what he had made was good.
1Sa 9:15-16 Now the day before Saul came, the LORD had revealed this to Samuel: “About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin. Anoint him ruler over my people Israel; he will deliver them from the hand of the Philistines. I have looked on my people, for their cry has reached me.”
Was it the Lord who told Samuel to anoint Saul King?
1Sa 15:10-11 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.
I understand Samuel being upset, but notice, the Lord regretted he chose Saul king.
Indeed, but it must be pointed out that the Church is the universal People of God, not some segment of society.
One does not have to extrapolate to creation in general. John did that on John 1, when he pointed out that Jesus Christ is the Logos, the Rational, Creative Word of God. God creates diversity in nature and promotes social diversity because God loves diversity.
I am glad you see it as plausible, because it seems that most people do not like diversity. They prefer uniformity, because it seems safer, and they accept their own judgement over that of Jesus’.
As I have repeatedly said, Jesus is the Logos, the Rational Creative Word of God. If you area Christian that is a given fact. I do not expect Dawkins & Co to agree or understand this, but BioLogos definitely should.
The question remains as to How does God use the Logos create diversity in people and our world? That is the proper task of science.
in more modern translations they say “It grieves me” or you could say it makes me sad that I did that as he fell away from him. It reflects our human way of trying to justify God’s actions but as he knew that it served the outcome he would not wish he had not done it as in being the wrong decision.
If God says “no regrets” it is justified because he knows that his decisions are right as he is omniscient. So he will allow things to happen we see as evil because he knows that those who love him are protect from it and those who turn out evil still serve as a warning example to the good of others.
One of course has to make a distinction between real life recorded history and what is seen as pre-history. In the former there was human eye-witnesses for the most part. In the latter it is what is interpreted from what exists currently.
The recorded history in the bible makes it clear that there was a great flood that engulfed the whole earth and destroyed most of the living creatures on earth. Then there was replenishment from the ark of Noah(with his sons and their wives), whom God also used to replenish human kind.
That recorded history is clear, plain and straight-forward unless of course it clashes with one’s own invented “history” of the world, in which case it becomes a myth.
As it stands right now, all the massive, very wide-spread layers of sedimentary rock (10 000s of square kilometers of the same layers) indicates the need for Noachian size water movements on the face of the earth. The movement of huge animals and boulders as well as their rapid burial (only way to form fossils) under tons of sediment indicates water forces of such proportions that it boggles the mind. Such forces can only be generated by ginormous water movement as described in the story of Noah.
Or a very long period of time, with modern-like conditions.
A violent giant flood would not deposit sediment in a sequence that seems close to random: it would produce entirely highly sorted layers, which we absolutely do not find. Most fossils of large vertebrates are tiny pieces, which suggests that most are not buried quickly.
This is starting to get off topic, though, so I will not continue the point.
Thank you for your reply. Let us look at some other Scripture and try to pursue this line of reasoning.
2 Chronicles 32:29-31 He built villages and acquired great numbers of flocks and herds, for God had given him very great riches. 30 It was Hezekiah who blocked the upper outlet of the Gihon spring and channeled the water down to the west side of the City of David. He succeeded in everything he undertook. 31 But when envoys were sent by the rulers of Babylon to ask him about the miraculous sign that had occurred in the land, God left him to test him and to know everything that was in his heart.
Here it is that God blessed Hezekiah with 15 more years of life. God gave him very great riches. So as time went on envoys were sent by the ruler of Babylon to ask him about the miraculous things that were occurring in his land. Apparently God took this as an opportunity to test him. Notice God wanted to find out more about what was in Hezekiah’s heart. So what action did God take? The Scripture says that he left him or pulled his Holy Spirit from him. Why did God do this? The answer apparently is to know everything that was in his heart. So the question to ask when did God know how Hezekiah was going to react? The only answer that I could come up with, it all depended upon what actions Hezekiah did with the envoys that the ruler of Babylon sent. At this time is when God realized and knew what was in the heart of Hezekiah.