Does Modern Science Make Jesus a Liar?

Hi Al,

There is an unsubstantiated presumption to your comment that “God initiated physical creation to unfold over long periods of time.” How is that provable? What if the speed of light were ten orders of magnitude at the singular initiation of creation? You might scoff at that and instead contend that the constants we see today were present at the inception of the universe, but that is a metaphysical assumption that is completely unproven. The only metaphysical information we have from a transcendent source is the Bible from God, so we had better rely on that for any and all information regarding issues which cannot be positively determined, such as the beginning and ending of the world. 2 Peter 3:1-10 gives some really helpful information here, especially verse 4, where Peter writes that it will be scoffers who contend that things which are now have always been and will always be (with the implication that you don’t want to be a scoffer).

Bottom line: use science when and where science is legitimate (i.e. when and where the constants are known to be uniform), and use the Bible when and where uniformity cannot be taken for granted.

Colin

Hi Richard,

Good to meet you.

God has given us minds which can elucidate scientific concepts that in turn give us information about our world. But science only works in the realm of uniformity, i.e. when physical constants are reliably present. Thus, no uniformity, no science.

The inquiry into creation necessarily uses the constants we see now to decipher the past. But this is a philosophical position about a metaphysical event, and is no more substantiated than the metaphysical position that the uniformity we see now was NOT present at the beginning. Speculation about the metaphysical world is specious unless there is a transcendent source that can solve any disputes. This is a function of the Bible, God’s commentary on what He did at the beginning which is not subject to scientific inquiry–i.e. cannot be understood from repeated objective measurement. There is nothing mindless about saying I will understand what can be elucidated from the proper use of science, and will rely on what the Creator says about those areas where science fails (because uniformity fails).

2 Peter 3:1-10 speaks to the problem of presuming uniformity at the bookends of time.

Respectfully,

Colin

Isn’t is a problem that human interpretation of the transcendent source is certainly not uniform either? No uniformity, no infallible biblical interpretation.

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No. Uniformity in a scientific sense is unrelated to the presence or lack of uniformity among biblical interpreters. These are two distinctly different uses of the term. In your latter example use of uniformity, it must be understood that the qualities of inerrancy and infallibility of Scripture are not based upon human assessment (and by implication, whether or not they are in uniform agreement), but rather upon God’s. The Bible is reliable as transcendent information which trumps all other metaphysical speculations simply because God says it is. The agreement or disagreement among biblical interpreters does not bear on whether biblical information is reliable about undiscoverable events and processes.

It then follows that the key to all Scriptural interpretation–including God’s comments about how things got underway–is having the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:16), in order that one might then interpret properly the Word of Christ (Rom. 10:17; Col. 3:16). Christ says that Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35), so one key interpretive principle is the consistency of all that is written (i.e. everything must fit). Paul makes a further point in 1 Cor. 1:18-2:16 that correct interpretation of Scripture is divorced from human intellectual considerations. It is for this reason that Paul contrasts the “wisdom” of worldly speculation and challenges to what God has written in His Word with those whom the world disregards as “foolish.”

Bottom line: Biologos is working from an incorrect paradigm of uniformitarianism, which then requires it to spin elaborate hermeneutical webs designed (it seems to me) to explain why God is not really saying what He seems to be saying. Presumably this is done so that its proponents might maintain standing in the secular world and its ideas about science. But God would have us reject the world’s considerations regarding what is correct and what is incorrect (and thus be subject to the world’s disdain) when His Word has established a contrary answer. This is especially true in areas which are not subject to scientific inquiry because presuppositional assumptions cannot be positively
established.

Not really. A plain reading in context shows Peter is talking about the scoffers who were saying that Christ will not return because nothing has changed.

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Per Peter, “scoffers” contend Christ is not returning because of the uniformity they see in the world around them, and they improperly presume that such has been and will always be the case. Verse 4b says “…all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” That is a quote which establishes its plain meaning. This is the position of uniformitarianism: all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation. According to the Bible, this is the position of scoffers, who scoff at the notion of no uniformity at the bookends of time. Peter then talks in verse 5 about the beginning of creation and in verses 7 and 10 about its end. This establishes that his comments on the absence of uniformity pertain to both bookends of time. Peter is not just referencing the future when Jesus will return and the world will be destroyed; he is also saying these people base their error about the future by making an error about the past.

But, if in our humanity, we don’t have access to the perfection of God’s transcendent information (as evidenced by the lack of uniformity in our interpretations) aren’t we in the same place of fallible knowledge as we are with science? I hear this argument of yours all the time and it makes absolutely no sense to me. Science is just a fallible, limited, human interpretation of the natural world, but the Bible is GOD’S WORD. Yeah, God’s word that we are attempting to understand with the same fallible, limited, human brains that we use to do science. “Biblical information” is not deposited in some pure objective form into our brains by the Holy Spirit. We have to understand what is being said in the Bible and the “information” we get out of that divine communication is limited by our human ability to make sense of it.

It is impossible to divorce human interpretation from the human intellect, seeing that one has to use a human intellect understanding human language to perform the mental task of interpretation.

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Always helps to read the entire sentence.

Verse 4, They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

The scoffers are talking about a “coming”. Now what could that possibly mean? The second coming of course.

And the section concludes with

Verse 10, But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Again talking about the second coming.

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I had highlighted 4b so that you would be sure not to miss he is also talking about the “beginning of creation.” As you have noted, he is also talking about the end of the world. But the phrase “the beginning of creation” is not the end of the world and needs to be interpreted for what it means–the beginning of creation. Peter is referring to both.

It is true–strictly speaking-- that biblical information is not deposited in some pure objective form into our brains by the Holy Spirit. But it is further true that only those who have the Holy Spirit will have any truth conveyed to them from the Word of God. This is Paul’s point in 1 Cor. 1:18-2:16. He writes (2:14): “The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” So the number one rule for those who would know what the Word of God has to say is to repent and believe the gospel that saves. Because this is so vital, I have posted elsewhere that I think it would be a necessary project for Biologos to state clearly the gospel of Jesus Christ in a prominent place on its website. After all, if there is no communion on this vital subject, it is predictable there would be no agreement on subsequent theological matters. Not only that, there is no sense dialoguing over what happened at the creation of the world when the eternal fate of souls participating may be at risk.

Once the Holy Spirit is authentically living within the believer through repentant faith, the prior verse applies (2:13): “And we impart this [v. 12 “things freely given us by God”] in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.” It is for this reason that the Apostle John writes (1 John 2:27): “But the anointing that you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie–just as it is has taught you, abide in Him.” The anointing of the Spirit of God does actually give the true believer insight into God’s text–this is why I qualified your statement above as being only “strictly true.” The Holy Spirit actually does impart objective, unassailable truth to those in whom He dwells; however, this learning does take effort. The believer has responsibility to (2 Peter 3:18) “grow…in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,” and this happens through study of the Word and prayer. In this manner, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from belief in the true gospel, and through subsequent study and prayer, we do have access to God’s transcendent information in a reliable form–so reliable that true believers are commanded to tear down all false ideas that do not comport with the proper understanding of the entire Word of God (2 Cor. 10:3-5). You might be surprised how much uniformity of perspective exists just in following these basic prerequisites.

Hopefully, the above shows you that we are not (as you say) attempting to study God’s Word with the same fallible, limited human brains with which one understands science and other aspects of this world: true believers (1 Cor. 2:16) “have the mind of Christ,” and that makes all the difference.

Responding to: “It is impossible to divorce human interpretation from the human intellect, seeing that one has to use a human intellect understanding human language to perform the mental task of interpretation.”

This perspective is actually a fallacy and is disproved by 1 Cor. 2:14. All who understand Scripture truly are rational, but not all who are rational will understand Scripture. The human intellect is of no value in understanding the mind of God without the Spirit of God living within to provide the interpretation.

It is the scoffers that refer to “the beginning of creation” and they are just saying “it has always been this way”. Just as there are people today that say it has been 2,000 years since Christ died so he must not be coming back. Peter in his reply starts with Noah’s flood. Hardly the beginning of creation. Read the chapter in it’s entirety. The chapter is about the Day of the Lord. It is not about the principle of uniformity.

That’s not something I believe at all. You make it sound like the only people who can understand God’s word are those who are already converted. Surely you would acknowledge that God’s Spirit can work in people’s hearts and minds before they repent and believe, or otherwise how does anyone come to a place of repentance in the first place? The Holy Spirit can speak through the Bible to believers and unbelievers otherwise there is no point telling a seeker to read the Bible in his/her search for truth. Plus, when Paul asks in Romans 10 how someone is saved, he says it’s by hearing the word of God. (He’s not drawing some distinction between reading and listening either) He says that Israel has heard and understood the message and yet they still rejected Christ. Paul argues that on the other hand God showed himself to the Gentiles even though they weren’t asking for him. And the message that saves is pretty simple: Confess Jesus is Lord and believe God raised him from the dead. There’s not a lot of room to mess up the interpretation there.

Wow, you put a lot of your own meaning into those verses.There is no talk at all there about the “proper understanding of the entire Word of God.” Probably because the concept of the “entire Word of God” as 66 books of canonical Scripture didn’t exist when Paul wrote it. I think that is a pretty blatant (and weak) proof text to defend your viewpoint. Paul and the apostles were preaching the gospel, a message which tore down obstacles to knowing God, arguments and rationalizations born in human pride and rebellion. Amen to that. But it absolutely does not mean “We fact check other believers understanding of the gospel message to make sure it comports with our interpretive claims about of the entire Word of God.”

True believer scientists have the mind of Christ when they study science then too. How do you explain the overwhelming number of Spirit-filled scientists who think physical constants of the universe really are a thing and are using their minds of Christ to conclude the earth is really ancient? If getting this right is such a big deal to God, then surely he is going to be right there illuminating the minds of scientists who are his children as they study his creation. If we want to play the proof text game, John 16:13 says that when the Spirit comes he will guide you into all truth, not just truth about Bible interpretation.

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Colin,

The BL statement of faith is here: The Work of BioLogos - BioLogos

We don’t have a sentence or two defining the gospel explicitly, in a manner such as this: “the gospel is …”, but neither does AiG for that matter. Both organizations affirm specific things about the gospel. For example, BL affirms “We believe that all people have sinned against God and are in need of salvation.” Do you agree with that?

AiG says much more about the gospel in their statement here: Statement of Faith | Answers in Genesis

However, I see nothing whatsoever in BL’s statement about salvation (above) that would be denied by anyone affiliated with AiG. Do you?

Furthermore, many other Christian beliefs affirmed by AiG would be affirmed by everyone affiliated with BL. I’ll give you just three examples, but there are others. “The Godhead is triune: one God, three Persons—God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.” or, “Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary.” or, “Freedom from the penalty and power of sin is available to man only through the sacrificial death and shed blood of Jesus Christ and His complete and bodily resurrection from the dead.” However, I don’t know what the word “complete” means in this context, so I personally would remove “complete and” while affirming the rest of that sentence. Perhaps I would affirm it as written, if I understood what “complete and” meant here.

I will offer my own definition of the gospel in a separate comment. Please do not attribute my wording to BL or any other organization.

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As you know, Colin, you asked me privately to define the gospel and I did. For the benefit of others, here is what I said. Readers are advised that what follows reflects my own understanding of what Christianity is about, and that I do not speak either for BL or for anyone else affiliated with BL. However, it goes without saying that I fully endorse the briefer statement of the gospel on our web site. To the extent that my statement overlaps with that given by BL, they are fully consistent.

“The gospel is the ‘good news’ that God loved us enough to become a human being uniquely in the person of Jesus, who showed us the divine nature through his life, suffering (unto death), and resurrection, in order that we too might become more like him and share eternal communion with God.”

I could offer other definitions, Colin, but I offer this one b/c it emphasizes what the Greek fathers regarded as the central miracle of our faith: the Incarnation. My Orthodox friends have that part right, IMO. As far as I can tell as an historian of Christianity and science, the earliest Christians would have resonated with what I just confessed.

Do you agree with the definition I just gave, Colin? I’m not asking whether your definition is identical (I could offer others, too); I’m asking whether you agree with what I said about the gospel.

If so, then let’s rejoice in our shared faith.

If not, then what did I say that you do not accept?

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Hi Christy,

I will address your points in order:

  1. We agree on much of what you write here. You are absolutely correct in citing what Paul says about the saving nature of the Word of God: “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ.” (Rom. 10:17). Unbelievers absolutely are to read God’s Word, repent of what it says about their condition, and believe what it says about what Jesus has done about that condition. In fact, God’s Word presents itself as the unique manner by which God redeems sinners. Peter writes that believers are “born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding Word of God” (1 Peter 1:23). James calls it (James 1:21), “the implanted Word, which is able to save your souls.” God’s Word is the manner by which He saves.

But it must be understood that it is only through the Holy Spirit that truth from God’s Word is conveyed (John 16:13). In every case where conversion occurs, it comes only by the Holy Spirit convicting of “sin and righteousness and judgment” (John 16:8). So what I wrote is also true: while the Holy Spirit does not indwell the unbeliever, those without God who then repent and truly believe in Christ’s atoning sacrifice for sin “have” the Holy Spirit as their guide to this truth (John 8:31-32). Please note that I did not say the Holy Spirit must be indwelling for one to understand God’s Word; I simply wrote that one must have the Holy Spirit to understand truth from God’s Word.

Why is all this important to clarify? Because until this point of repentant faith brings conversion, those who seek any answers in God’s Word will be subject to the prophecy of Jesus recorded in Isaiah: “‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ (Mt. 13:14; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; cf. Isa. 6:9).

  1. Believers are called by God to be on guard against false doctrine. Every book of the New Testament save Philemon enjoins believers to exercise discernment in sorting true doctrine from false. Jesus makes this point at the climax of His longest uninterrupted sermon (Mt. 7:13-23). So the verses I referenced in 2 Cor. 10 are thus not unique. Ephesians 5:11 commands believers to expose “unfruitful works of darkness.” Believers are to understand the martial nature of the Word of God–this is why it is called (Heb. 4:12; Eph. 6:17)) the “sword of the Spirit.” It has both defensive and offensive purposes: it is to be used both to defend God’s truth (1 Pet. 3:15) and to attack assaults against it (2 Tim. 3:16; 4:1-5; Titus 1:9).

The gospel that Paul and the other Apostles preached, as you say, “tore down obstacles to knowing God…born in human pride and rebellion.” Because of this, God’s Word–the source of the gospel–was, is, and always has been subject to attack by the enemy, who seeks to corrupt any part of its message he might in subtle, pernicious ways. Thus the need to use the Word of God as God intends–as the standard by which to assess any and all claims about it. This is what the Reformers termed “analogia Scriptura”–the analogy of faith–which is the idea that Scripture is entirely consistent within itself and acts to decipher itself. So, yes, there is indeed instruction throughout Scripture that it stands as a whole, any part of which can be used against those who would undermine it in any way.

To your point about what constituted the Word of God when Paul wrote 2 Corinthians: it began as a mystery hidden within God before the foundation of the world (1 Cor. 2:7). It was unveiled to God’s chosen people Israel in sequential order from the time of Moses (Job may have been earlier) until the time of the prophets was ended (Heb. 1:1). It then reached its zenith when the Incarnated Word came to Earth and spoke new truths of God (Heb. 1:2). These were recorded by the Apostles and their helpers as inspired but the Holy Spirit, who brought the truths of Christ to their remembrance and (John 14:26; 15:26-27; 16:13) and also unveiled new mysteries (1 Cor. 15:51; Eph. 3:3,9).

Those in Corinth who received Paul’s second inspired letter to them (2 Corinthians; c. late 55 or early 56 A.D.) would have had at that point the entire OT, probably the gospel of Matthew, and likely copies of the earlier epistles (James, Galatians, Romans, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, and of course 1 Corinthians). It is clear form Paul’s letters that as the Church received these, they were incorporated as new revelation of God with the same authority as OT Scripture (1 Thess. 2:13; 1 Cor. 14:37). As today, believers then were to use all this truth to defend God’s accumulating Word from attacks against it. And the point of attack where God’s Word is most vital is in defending the gospel that saves from its detractors. This was Paul’s modus operandi for the letter to the Galatians. We believers do indeed–like Paul–“fact check” the gospel message of those claiming like-minded faith to make sure what they say comports with what the Word of God declares as the gospel.

  1. Scientists can be true believers and still be deluded by error. That is why I do not believe nor do I state that evolutionists cannot be Christians. This is also why I am in dialogue with you and others at Biologos about these crucial matters. Ideas are fungible. No one is inextricably connected to his or her own error, as though it is integral to his or her makeup. Part of the process of sanctification involves the abandonment of error for truth. This is why those who know God’s truth are not to recoil from the confident censure of a professing believer’s error, provided it is done in love, gentleness and respect (1 Corinthians 13:1-3; 2 Timothy 2:24-26). It is not undermining who he or she is as a person. On the contrary, it is opening him or her to the opportunity to exchange error for truth. It is, I admit, very disconcerting to think that one’s scientific work might be predicated on an incorrect presupposition and therefore worthless. But it is even worse to allow such scientists to continue in that error without at least exposing to them the biblical alternative.

When evolutionists are uniformitarian in their thinking, they are making an unvalidated, and thus unfounded, presupposition that the constants they see today are applicable in determining what occurred at the outset of the universe. This is an incorrect paradigm which will lead one down the trail of falsehood, which will be ever compounding the more one doubles down on it. There is no truth that can be specifically known about this natural world that does not fit within what is generally revealed in the Word of God. That means that if one derives an idea from studying the natural world that would negate a clear truth of God, it must be discarded. But Biologos seems to be driven by the reverse of this principle. The multiple theological meanderings into heresy I see coming out of Biologos all derive from the fundamental misjudgment that when an incompatibility arises between what is thought to be known about the natural world and what is thought to be true about God’s Word, it is God’s Word that is to be dismantled and reconfigured.

What heresies? Speculations that death must have preceded sin in an evolutionary world, despite its clear refutation in Romans 5:12. Speculations that modern ideas about genetic variablity and genetic transmission suggest that the human genome did not derive from two particular individuals, making Adam and Eve figurative representatives of mankind, and not the actual, literal human antecedants of all humanity, as clearly stated in Gen. 3:20 and Acts 17:26 (not to mention the entire Genesis 1-3 account). I could go on, but it let me focus on this last matter, where the heresy borders on blasphemy. How so? In God’s economy, all sin must derive form the singular act of disobedience by a particular man in order to be properly covered by the sacrifice of one particular Man (cf. Rom. 5:18; 1 Cor. 15:22,45). If there were no literal Adam and Eve, then there was no singular, original sin act as the basis for all sin in the human experience. Thus, God’s plan for the treatment of sin–penal substitutionary atonement through the death of His Son–is inadequate. Why? In this hypothetical case, there would still be sin in this world that has not been covered by the “precious blood of Christ” (1 Peter 1:19). That would mean that there is some sin still needing a saving act other than what Christ accomplished through His death and resurrection–the pinnacle event in history and the crux of the gospel. You can see what a stench in the nostrils of God such thinking must be.

The “big deal” to God is not that we use improper paradigms that lead to misunderstandings about what He has created. The “big deal” to God is that we believe what He wrote in His Word that we might be saved, that we would then grow in grace and knowledge of God via deeper understanding of His Word (John 17:17; 2 Pet. 3:18), and that we would use His Word to defend the enemy’s attacks against it. God has given us His version of creation in His Word which is easily understood and rationally defensible against all who would undermine it.

Coln

Well, now that another objection to an Old Earth has been taken down, it is time to move to the next one, which is the favourite one of my fellow YECs:

Exodus 20:11

Does someone have an article on that? It is the verse that all YECs keep quoting when talking about the age of our planet.

Yes, here.

Thanks. That’s one of YECs’ favourite verses when it comes to disproving an Old Earth.

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@TedDavis wrote:
But BioLogos also believes that Genesis is God’s Word,

John 1:1 (NIV2011)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

As a point of fact BioLogos does not refer to the Bible as the Word of God in its statement of belief. It points out that Jesus Christ is the Word of God ands the Bible is the word of God.

The Bible makes it clear that the word of God and the Word of God are two different things. Because one is God, the Word of God - Jesus Christ, and the other is not, we must keep them separate or the word becomes an IDOL or substitute for the Word, which seems to me has happened too often in evangelical circles.

Genesis is part of God’s word, while Jesus Christ is God’s Word. If Genesis (or the Bible) were God’s divine Word, then it would be perfect and absolute, but it is not. Please do not make the Bible a liar by calling it something that it is not, Jesus Christ, God’s Word…