Does God Set us Up to Fail?

Even if I were to accept that the Adam/Eve story was a myth I would take the same basic teaching from it- ie. That Mankind was created perfect but with free will / when tempted we exercised our free will and rebelled against God /and God who cannot commune with evil expelled us from his presence.

A fundamental point of the story as I understand it is to convey the truth of our fall from grace. Adam and Eve living in a perfect world and with direct access to God disobeyed his command " Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ".

It tells me that God is perfect / He created us perfect but with our own free will whereby we can reject him. Adam and Eve though created perfect polluted their nature through their sin , As a consequence when they procreate they can not create offspring as perfect as they themselves were before they fell. Their progeny are born less perfect than they were and consequently even more prone to sin. Rom. 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
The World “is slanted downward” to use your expression is as a direct consequence of sin. Though we can never attain it through our own efforts never the less a perfect God must demand perfection of us.
Matt 5:48 “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
However God does provide a way in Jesus.

I am assuming you mean morally perfect? As in sinless? There was still cancer and a host of other diseases, environmental problems, pollution and so forth in addition to natural disasters. These all predate humanity. I am also okay with understanding Adam and Eve as implying something similar to what you are saying: our sin and disobedience and pride pulls us away from God and his presence. I’m just not convinced its some cosmic, all pervasive event transmitted to all humanity or our offspring through any other capacity but learned behaviors. Then again, I am not sure how accountable a person is for learned behaviors. Some C.S. Lewis quotes come to mind. Maybe the subject could be broached from there though.

You also seem to imply people after Adam and Eve are more prone to sin. This sounds like what Klax suggested. We are just doing what we were born to do then. We are set up to fail which makes the statistics how many people hav chosen the wrong way in life make sense.

I understand how mankind in general and the world in general is slanted down due to sin, I am just not understanding the Christian extrapolation of that doctrine to every single person since time immemorial. Thats how preaching begins, with Romans. “All have sinned…” I am not even sure falling short of the glory of God is even meaningful to me. Unless I misunderstand it, this is just tautologically telling us we are not God. No duh, Paul.

I am not sure how you go from Adam and Eve have sinned or even most people have sinned to ALL have sinned. I understand scripture teaches this. It is precisely my point. How can we suggest all have failed and everyone else will fail and maintain we have genuine choice not to fail? The bar is purposefully set beyond our reach. I personally don’t know anyone who I would even remotely think is free from all sin or in not need to redemption. Just trying to figure out a good reason why the world is the way it is in the confines of a non-literal garden story.

Vinnie

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Good points. Have you read Enns’ “Evolution of Adam”? It describes how Jewish and Christian interpretations of Adam have differed–for example, how Jews don’t interpret original sin as the cause of a fall from grace–that there were righteous folks in the OT, who God approved of, etc-- and it helps put Paul’s discussion in perspective.

Here’s a window on some of that. Also, the “New View on Paul” helps.
Was There a “Fall” or Did Augustine Really Screw Everything Up? (peteenns.com)

Dr. Scot McKnight on the New Perspective on Paul - YouTube
Thanks.

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Not yet but I have a copy of it (so much to read). I will check it out and those links. Thanks for sharing.

Vinnie

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From one of Enn’s pages I stumbled to from the link above:

[Incidentally, Jewish theology simply says that humans are “inclined” toward “evil”—aka the “evil inclination,” which is the language taken from the Flood story in Genesis 6:5, “The LORD saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually.” Sin is seen as a fact, but—wisely—no attempt is made to explain where this “evil inclination” came from. It does not have a cause. It is, rather, a fact of existence.]

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He is a friend of Lamoureux, who writes that the Fall is actually an accommodation to four Ancient Near East motifs of De Novo Creation, Lost Idyllic Age, Great Flood, and Tribal Formation (with a founding male).

The “inclination” sounds to me like Hebrew hyperbole. In fact, if you read “Evolution of Adam,” he points out that God recognizes the many righteous…that we are indeed able to be righteous. Irenaeus, as I recall, examined sin more as a childlike stumbling on the way, necessary to learning.

I, too, feel that to describe God as someone who made it impossible for us to be perfect, and then throw us into hell for a tiny thing, is illogical and makes Him out to be a monster. I have seen my own 7 year old daughter stumble in telling the truth. Yet, what parent would condemn a child to that? And God is better than we. My own parents were extremely Christ like. They actually were the ones who, unconsciously, modeled a “more Christ like God.”
CS Lewis wrote that he agreed with George MacDonald about God’s justice and the atonement. MacDonald has changed my view and understanding of God in many ways.

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Dear @Vinnie,

Please read my essay God and Freedom on Academia.edu and then we can talk.

Vinnie
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You state–"cancer and a host of other diseases, environmental problems, pollution and so forth in addition to natural disasters. These all predate humanity"
However as a Christian I believe that what God created was perfect , God is not the author of evil…He created beings with free will and that is how evil and destruction entered the world. If it could be proved that Gods creation was “corrupted” in some way before Adams sin than I would be looking for another source of corruption such as fallen angels,

.Again you say “All have sinned…” I am not even sure falling short of the glory of God is even meaningful to me. Unless I misunderstand it, this is just tautologically telling us we are not God

It is my understanding that "All have sinned "is a very basic scriptural teaching. In Psalm 14:2–3 we read: “The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

You continue-- “How can we suggest all have failed and everyone else will fail and maintain we have genuine choice not to fail”
Scripture does not teach that we" have genuine choice not to fail" On the contrary -Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are “sons of disobedience.” Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all “by nature children of wrath.”
you say “I am not sure how you go from Adam and Eve have sinned or even most people have sinned to ALL have sinned”.----I get there by accepting the teaching of scripture such as I have quoted above.

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I downloaded it, thanks. I will get to it soon.

Vinnie

I’d think it is safe to say that it was indeed God who bound all of us into disobedience, for the ultimate purpose of demonstrating mercy to us.

Is it mercy to forgive something you incited? Why would a just God do that? Thanks.

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You’d have to ask Paul, I’m afraid… I was just borrowing his words.

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Do we accept this by fideism, or try to understand it?
Can we supply clarification to Romans 11 that would convince a non Christian of justice?
“When In Romans,” by Gaventa, indicates another point of view…
I am reviewing it again. I have always struggled with this passage
It honestly seems to me strong evidence that it is either mistaken or misunderstood. I can not believe that it is a correct impression of justice.

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I enjoyed a lot of your paper and the distinction between character and nature of God.I am not 100% sure character and nature aren’t really the same thing in reference to God but it was a good read. I could ask, is God’s character not bound by his good nature? Is God a slave to his own nature? Sometimes philosophical discussions put me off as semantical word games.

You advocated a view for open view theism which I share. I first came across it in Greg Boyd a long time ago in Letters From a Skeptic. It always stuck with me. My worldview always argues from the position of freedom. God is omniscient in that he knows all that can be known, which excluded future free will decisions by definition. Exhaustive, definitive foreknowledge of the future choices of each person is not part of my omni-attributes possesses.

This is important because without free will there would be no evil. There is no evil in the natural world, except maybe when it impinges into our lives. But God’s love means that evil does not have the last word.

Can I get your definition of evil? Moral evil is the easy one to rationalize with the free will defense. How do you explain natural evil? Hurricanes and cancer, which has existed for hundreds of millions of years as far as I am aware. Life has been red in tooth and claw for a very long time now and mother nature is often times no better.

As I have stated above we cannot explain Creation by referring only to the nature of God, but must refer to God’s character. God created because He wanted to do so, but what is there in His character that explained why He wanted to create? The only explanation for this action that I can find is the definition of God’s character found in the New Testament and stated most succinctly as, “God is Love.” (1 Jn 4:8 & 16) If God’s character is love, then the reason behind the Creation is clear, for love means that one cares for someone beyond oneself. Clearly God could not love anyone or thing beyond Godself unless He created her /him.

Philosophically something bugged me here. How could God be love if there is nothing to love? Before he created us His nature is love without experiencing love? Is that coherent? I suppose a note about the trinity could be lurking about. Not huge on creeds myself or arguing from the trinity, which if it is true, is a complete incomprehensible divine mystery to me. And would your reasoning lead to multiverses? The more creations the more God can share his love?

At any rate, I don’t think anything in your paper directly addressed my issue in here but it was worth the read.

Vinnie

I’m not sure what is entailed in this question… obviously this, just like anything and everything else in scripture, I try to accept by faith and trust in what God has revealed, and I try to _understand it.

I’m not sure how you’re using the word, it asking if someone is willing to accept something by “fideism” seems a bit of a loaded term?

But if i am reading you rightly, and please forgive me if i am misreading … by “understanding” something in Scripture I mean “understanding” it, or “elucidating it” or “comprehending it”, not “redefining” it or “reimagining” it or “explaining it away” or any variation thereof?

Again, forgive me if i am misunderstanding you…

But are you seriously suggesting that the standard by which we should judge God himself, his actions, and anything and everything else he has revealed in Scripture would be as to whether or not an unbeliever would believe it to be just and find it acceptable?

God can only be defined as just if unbelievers approve of what he does? they have become “the judge of all the earth”, and God’s actions are now on trial? I would think it axiomatic that I ought to weigh unbelievers (and believers) fallible views of goodness, rightness, and justice by what the infallible God says is right and just, not the other way around?

To invoke Lewis’s famous observation… The ancient man approached God (or even the gods) as the accused person approaches his judge. For the modern man the roles are reversed. He is the judge: God is in the dock. He is quite a kindly judge: if God should have a reasonable defence for being the god who permits war, poverty and disease, he is ready to listen to it. The trial may even end in God’s acquittal. But the important thing is that Man is on the Bench and God in the Dock.

Again, I struggle to understand this approach. I can recognize myself as corrupt, a sinner, I know the things i have done, i know the ways i have justified behaviors in sinful manners… in short, i know without a doubt that my sense of justice is corrupt.

and add to that the evidence of world history… are humans truly unerring and infallibly trustworthy judges of what is right and good and just? every age seems to pass judgment on their predecessors… humans across ages have justified, and codified into laws, all manner of sin, evil, and atrocity, and called it “moral”.

So I simply struggle to understand how anyone can affirm their own personal views of justice, and/or that of their own limited culture, as so absolute, authoritative, and/or unerring that that can affirm with such confidence that a view expressed in Scripture is undoubtedly “mistaken”.

If, when Scripture and I (or my culture) disagree about some aspect of justice… if my default position is always that it is Scripture that must either be mistaken or is understood… and don’t acknowledge the possibility that, perhaps, I am the one whose ideas of rightness and justice need modification… then the ultimate authority for what is or is not just, right, and holy in the universe is me, not God, and not Scripture. Please correct me if I misunderstand?

otherwise, again to borrow Lewis’s insight…

scrupulous care to preserve the Christian message as something distinct from one’s own ideas, has one very good effect upon the apologist himself. It forces him, again and again, to face up to those elements in original Christianity which he personally finds obscure or repulsive. He is saved from the temptation to skip or slur or ignore what he finds disagreeable. And the man who yields to that temptation will, of course, never progress in Christian knowledge. For obviously the doctrines which one finds easy are the doctrines which give Christian sanction to truths you already knew. The new truth which you do not know and which you need must, in the very nature of things, be hidden precisely in the doctrines you least like and least understand. It is just the same here as in science. The phenomenon which is troublesome, which doesn’t fit in with the current scientific theories, is the phenomenon which compels reconsideration and thus leads to new knowledge. Science progresses because scientists, instead of running away from such troublesome phenomena or hushing them up, are constantly seeking them out. In the same way, there will be progress in Christian knowledge only as long as we accept the challenge of the difficult or repellent doctrines. A ‘liberal’ Christianity which considers itself free to alter the Faith whenever the Faith looks perplexing or repellent must be completely stagnant. Progress is made only into a resisting material.

This is appears a bit specious and even unscriptural. This is the type of blind faith that allows you to justify Old Testament rape, misogyny, or scriptural exegesis in favor of something like chattel slavery. Not to mention in Romans it says God’s law is written on our hearts. Everyone on the planet, save a few fundamentalists, following obscure passages in a 2,000 year old literary work, will tell you if you force a person to sin and then hold them accountable for it, there is something wrong with you.That is not justice or good by any conceivable metric. Not to mention, philosophically it is bordering on being a round square. If you sin in this framework then you are doing God’s will, what he created you to do. The definition of sin implies genuine choice to me. Unless you want to distinguish somehow between sin and disobedience where the latter is not the former? Clearly our disobedience is God’s will per the last verse in Romans 11.

Vinnie

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I resonate with much of what you say in the above post … except the last bit. Anybody that would suggest (based on a few verses here and there) that God wants us to be disobedient and sinful has very very seriously failed to understand virtually everything from the narrative arc of all scriptures. That is … in order to maintain such an opinion, one would have to abandon the entirety of scripture in favor of a terrible reading of a few scattered passages. Some fundamentalists may indeed do this, but (as Macdonald would say), their punishment for believing in such a demonically cruel god is … that they do.

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11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I meant as he was interpreting it. I don’t agree with the ideology but I’m not sure what Paul actually meant by this one verse. I agree the overall arc and bigger picture of scripture teaches we sin and screw up, not that we are forced into it by God.

As limited humans I think we have difficulty expressing God’s sovereignty and free will together and I think scripture itself necessarily has the same problem. In a sense free will implies God is not in control of all details, maybe in control of the forest or things in the sense of this is how he wanted it but I think we can misunderstand sovereignty at times. I opt for open view theism for this reason.

And I was mistaken, Romans 11 has a doxology after this verse, its not the last one!

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I suppose I could respond by recognizing that you are essentially objecting by asking, “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?”

And I suppose I could respond by saying, simply, “who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?”

Now, I’m not interested in re-opening a major predestination/Calvinism discussion, but suffice to say that for us Calvinists who take seriously both human freedom and responsibility for sin and the recognition all over Scripture that our sin is part of God’s intentional and purposeful plan (following as we are those obscure parts of the Bible, like the book of Romans)… that when God unerringly plans for people to sin (as he explicitly is said to have done with Joseph’s brothers, for instance), he neither “forces” them to do so, nor were they “obeying the will of God” in any sense whatsoever by their sins against their brother. They wilfully sinned, according to their own free will, and God will judge them for that, violating as they did everything he revealed about his will for how mankind behaves. The question as to whether this state of affairs was also predestined, purposed, and planned by God is essentially a different topic but doesn’t impact the basic principle that God would judge them for a conscious, free, and uncoerced choice to sin.

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Mr Fisher, how would we jive James 1:13 with this interpretation? Thank you