When I asked, “Does biology need Darwinism?”, what I really meant was, “Does biology need the theory that all life on earth shares a common ancestor?” This would have been a far better title for the topic. Sorry for any confusion caused.
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I not just that I don’t believe you - I can’t believe you! My spirit simply cannot abide the belief that humans and chimps share a common ancestor. No amount of evidence will ever allow me to accept anything but “six days” creation. A voice deep down in my soul is telling me that billions of years of evolution is false. Time will tell if my intuition has “a basis in reality” or not.
Rightttt… @Dredge, and that is why you, despite your claims, will look at any data and reject it as a Satanic illusion.
I don’t even know why you are on this list… we stopped offering injections 2 years ago… they were ineffective on Evangelicals of your type.
"Time will tell if my intuition has “a basis in reality” or not."
I think we would all be better off if we shared that type of spiritual humility, as we are all in the shoes of Job and his friends and fail to recognise the wisdom of God.
That does not mean we should not strive for a deeper understanding, however, and hopefully discussions like this can get us there. When you say no amount of evidence will change your mind, my hope is that that is hyperbole, as it appears you are putting your personal intuition above all else, which is not a good thing.
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Yay! Finally! This is not a criticism, at all, so please don’t take it that way. Dredge, if your spirit does not allow you to believe anything but “six days” creation, then why do you feel compelled to gather “proof” of your position? If you hold that belief because of a spiritual conviction, then why try to make it about intellectual proof? And, just as importantly, if others do not hear that same voice that you do deep down in their soul saying that billions of years of evolution is false, why do you try to force them hear it?
Dredge, your conscience will not allow you to believe evolution is true. Follow your conscience. My conscience is not bothered by the idea. Allow me to follow my conscience, then, and let’s both strive to live up to Psalm 131:
My heart is not proud, Lord,
my eyes are not haughty;
I do not concern myself with great matters
or things too wonderful for me.
But I have calmed and quieted myself,
I am like a weaned child with its mother;
like a weaned child I am content.
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My intuition may be dead wrong and be based on some irrational preconception or whatever. But I think I will always have trouble accepting that we evolved from some kind of sub-human creature. My spirit just can’t get itself around that idea, which I find repellent. My distaste (and anger too, sometimes, I must confess) is probably reflected in some of my cruder posts, for which I apologise.
But I want to investigate both sides of the debate, which is why I’m here at Biologos - as limited as my understanding of biological science is (I’m completley clueless reading many of the posts - biology is much more complex than I ever imagined!). But I’m not completely stupid, so hopefully I can at least gain a better appreciation of the issues. And I love science, so that’s a good start.
Anyways, come the Last Day, the Lord won’t be judging us on our understanding of the theory of evolution.
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Thank you for your thoughts, Jay … and that Psalm - wow, it really affected me and filled me with peace! It’s a ripper! I might get it tattooed on my chest.
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It’s a little long. Maybe just: “I am like a weaned child”. Put it in Old English font. Mucho respect when you take your shirt off at the beach with that one! 
Grace and peace to you, brother.
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Yes, and it reminds of a couple of favorite quotes of mine from Kempis’ Imitation of Christ:
Many often err and accomplish little or nothing because they try to become learned rather than to live well. If men used as much care in uprooting vices and implanting virtues as they do in discussing problems, there would not be so much evil and scandal in the world, or such laxity in religious organizations. On the day of judgment, surely, we shall not be asked what we have read but what we have done; not how well we have spoken but how well we have lived.
The more you know and the better you understand, the more severely will you be judged, unless your life is also the more holy. Do not be proud, therefore, because of your learning or skill. Rather, fear because of the talent given you. If you think you know many things and understand them well enough, realize at the same time that there is much you do not know. Hence, do not affect wisdom, but admit your ignorance.
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Perhaps try thinking of it this way: which is more humbling to learn that we were created out of, monkeys or dirt?
You will know you have a robust understanding of the BioLogos “side” when you can correctly write about the following topics:
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Evolution - Evolution as a technical term is Any change in a population’s gene pool… and that includes even trivial changes. The ongoing hum of alleles variously changing their ratios … whether anyone notices or not, is a fundamental principle.
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Speciation - When a population gets divided by some kind of barrier (either a physical one or sheer distance as a barrier), or by any other factor that would reduce the free interchange and exchange of genes, over time the newly separated populations (all other things being equal) can become increasingly less compatible in reproductive terms. When the average individual from one population can longer create fertile offspring by mating with the average individual from the other population, “Speciation” has occurred.
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By definition, when Speciation occurs, you have 2 or more populations that are related by “Common Descent”. It’s a corollary of Speciation. So some people use the phrase “Common Descent” as a short-hand way of referring to Speciation.
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By definition, once you have speciation, you have the machinery for eventually creating very diverse subsequent populations (anatomically, psychologically, physiologically, etc).
Believe it or not, there is no qualitative distinction in genetics between so-called “Micro-Evolution” and so-called “Macro-Evolution”. There are life forms that look very similar but that are not reproductively compatible, while other life forms, that have dramatically different appearances, can still produce fertile offspring.
When you understand these 4 ideas, Dredge, you will then understand the the body of science called Evolution, even if you don’t agree with it.
I’m glad to see that you went ahead and identified that “voice”: your intuition. I’m curious to hear your reasons as to why you would consider your intuition to be an authority about such matters. (I’ve learned that my intuition is only as informed and wise as my education and experience allow. Also, the Bible has much to say about the fallen nature of my “intuitions”.)
The Bible tells me to not rely exclusively on my own understanding. It also tells me that “there is safety in many counselors” and that I should learn from those who have knowledge. How does that fit into your decision to cling to your present position no matter what? (If that is not a correct characterization of your position, please explain in more detail.)
I’ve known people who were equally repulsed by the idea of humans coming from “the dust of the ground.” And even though biological life can correctly be described as that “dust of the ground” plus water, a great many Christians I know go absolutely ballistic at the thought of “primeval soup”. It sounds to me like all of the aforementioned reactions could be characterized as relying on feelings.
It brings to my mind Peter’s reaction when he had a vision where he saw various unclean things—and was told to eat them. If God has revealed that something is within his wise plan, should we refuse it on the basis of negative emotions?
Agreed!
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I ran across this, relating to the humility of physical origins, made me smile
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I think the last thing any of us want to do is to make you fall. We cannot want anything more than to see you safe in the arms of Jesus. Please recognize that we also struggle with these issues, and a lot more. Nevertheless, just as we expect Christians who live by grace to be faithful and trustworthy, there is no getting around being faithful and trustworthy on the findings we dig up.
This forum is here to help people who are confused by the triumphalist claims of this rather vociferously aggressive atheist propaganda (because propaganda is all it is). I have read the “Origin of the Species”. Darwin hardly talked in any manner remotely close to Dawkins – not at all the same tone. Although not so much exactly a Christian, there are a couple of very brief sentences that still suggest to me that Darwin believed in God. He dedicatedly and persistently pursued his study and very thoughtfully wrote that book. But like most things in science, such knowledge can be used for good purposes, or abused for ill purposes.
Science is mute on the heavenly matters. Judging the kinds of things that go on under the sun, that is probably a good thing. If we really found the access to the smallest of heavenly tools, we would surely destroy many things on galactic scales with our own unrestrained arrogance and stupidity. So I reckon God put an angel at the gates of Eden for a good reason.
Unfortunately, with science, one can only sit on the fence. We sense the call to live right – if we don’t silence it – but the final decision is faith based and dependent on the heart, not fact based and dependent on intellect.
We will not prove God with science. That is what you are being challenged to do by atheists, and of course you feel impotent. Because you cannot fight back, Dawkins, Krauss et al are free to laugh at you, mockingly saying “where is your god”. Well, yes, we cannot pick up our swords and slaughter the infidels (probably a good thing because I was one of those who mocked so I would also be dead). The righteous must live by faith.
We must trust God’s word. We will not win this by power. We will win this by being faithful stewards of our craft as scientists. We will win this by loving our enemies and praying for those who persecute us. We will win this by keeping faithful to the word and following Jesus. It seems there is no other way. So don’t expect that we have a club and now you go out there and smash those impudent heads. It seems God has decided that we must win this by our faith, by following Jesus and listening to him, and so we should pray more and fervently for that.
And keep this in mind too. Some of the people here are real scientists. We do this everyday, and we labor as though we work for our Lord. If any of us here really stumbled on a good solid powerful proof that worked better than what we have, do you think for one minute that we would not stand up and fight for the truth? That is our job, that is our duty.
So if we argue with you, it is not because we are smug and self-important. We are obliged to tell you what we understand – to the best of our ability. … and yes, we do understand that we could be wrong, but it is not like we have not tried to understand these matters and diligently thought these matters through very carefully and tested all things we could think of. We accept evolution, we don’t believe in it.
That’s good. and maybe I was a little harsh with you on another post. Perhaps you didn’t understand me.
Biology is a very complicated field. Each day, I constantly come to discover how vastly little I know compared to yesterday, even through I read copiously all the time and have fought ceaselessly on trying to understand as much as I could. I cannot think of a field more humbling than biology related research. Everything is a pathetic hack, but, unfortunately, I have to say that evolution was one of the far better hacks I’ve seen. It is a formidable mountain that stands higher than the Himalayas.
Those of us who do science and are also people of faith eventually come to realize that the atheists’ triumphalism is empty words and propaganda. What atheists and people of faith believe (note “believe”) about ultimate reality is a choice of the heart. We look to Jesus because we know we are weak, we know that rationalism is useless in a tough moment and we need the word of God written on our hearts, we believe that there are things that we should do and things we should resist, and we know that we need God’s Grace to discern the path and light the way. Maybe we envy that American thing about beating the chest and boasting our greatness (like a football rally), but it is all foolishness without God. So it is very important to distinguish between faith and science, and not to corrupt science with god or no god stuff. The things of heaven are not measureable with our instruments, and that is how it will have to be, it seems.
Indeed, I also conclude that this doesn’t matter to God. God wants our faithfulness, to have victory over the daily struggles of life, he wants his children to be part of the kingdom. This is why it is faith. We have to actually trust God, and as I am sure you very well know, that is probably the hardest thing of all to do.
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Out of Objections “a” to “i” …Eight Objections! … I responded to all 8. And you offered a half a response to two of my responses.
[content removed by moderator. Behave yourself @gbrooks9 and be nice to our forum guests.]
I accept your edit. [And I like your 2nd edit very much!]
He should discuss my 8 responses to his 8 objections. I was the only one who provided a response to all his listed items.
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Good point, but evolution means it all started from dirt anyway.
George is like the rogue white blood cell of BioLogos. He hunts down dissenters and attacks them without mercy.
I had to LOL there! 
I hope you’ve realized by now that George himself is actually quite the “dissenter” amongst those who support BioLogos. As far as I know (@gbrooks9, correct me if I’m wrong), as a “Unitarian Universalist” he would not affirm points 1 and 4 of the BioLogos “What we believe” page . In contrast, the general audience that supports BioLogos consists of more “mainstream” Christian believers, mostly coming from evangelical and reformed backgrounds. It goes to say that you don’t need to be a “theological oddball” to find evolutionary creation a convincing perspective.
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Yep. Or pond muck. We don’t get to escape that we came from humble origins no matter how we twist!
It was funny, yesterday after I posted this a friend of mine said something about how for spiritual growth it’s absolutely necessary to start humble, and I thought of this conversation. Maybe it’s no coincidence that the Bible starts off with it! 
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