The view that Jesus and Paul had of slaves is very different from the images we have of the Europeans bring them over after their own African brothers and sisters sold off the other tribes, or very different from how the Roman Empire went out and got them, or how various native tribes conquered other tribes.
Though unfortunately it will be a few months because I have over a dozen of other topics I’m working on for various social media platforms but it comes up often from people nowdays trying to paint Jesus and Paul as these backwards slave supporting men. A big issue is that people forget that Jesus is writing to the Jews and that Paul was a jew and that just like every nation they had terms that get translated to words as time goes by. When they would have said slave, it was a very different imagery than what we think of as slaves. The Torah actually dives into this subject quite a bit. I’ll leave the majority of thoughts and sources though for when I have time to construct a argument from scripture, their history and culture verses our culture and associations with the words.
If anyone wants to dip their toes into this subject though it’s really refreshing to get an accurate understanding what the terminology and what it all meant to them. What was helpful to me was two processes.
The first was to look at how evil men and women used slavery in Bible. Look at writings from early Americans and europeans in America at its beginning. Look at how the disgusting David Duke and the KKK used the Bible to try to justify it. Bay times it can be very disheartening.
But it gets better in the second step which is to look at how abolitionist used the same to refute them. Look at how American American Christians have showed how the Bible was actually a light that was being abused by evil men.
Those two steps can really help current the cultural baggage that modern white Americans attach to the Bible when trying to understand what it meant to an early eastern small tribe that themselves faced the cruelty of a certain type of slavery by the Egyptians , Babylonians, Assyrians and so on.
This was a Protestant track, yes, perhaps evangelical?
I’ve been arguing throughout this thread for an open-hearted, evolving response to the question of women in ministry.
Please clarify, what do you mean by an “evolving response”? Christianity’s teachings about the priesthood are not determined and set, but rather fluid and “evolving”, is this your suggestion, as in randomly changing over time (cf. mutating) because of external pressures? If so, does this in your view suggest “improvement” or “progress” in any way, e.g. that the novelty of “women clergy” in the history of the Christian Church would be a sign that “Christianity (has) evolved” post-Reformation?
These questions seem relevant as it appears you are making an argument that “the Christian Church needs to evolve” (prescriptive) so that women can become clergy (only in protestantism), since you wanted at one point to become one yourself. Does this accurately reflect your argument?
“I’m not obedient enough to church tradition”.
It was a good decision then not to try to force it. Amen!
Ummm slavery back then was not the slavery in america when they wipped people torturing them to do hard labor… In the times of Paul somoene became a “slave” because he couldnt repay his debt. That is history 0.1 for me. My comment has no ill will just to spread out some truth since the acussation that the bible accepts slavery has been brought up
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
66
Slavery is slavery and all the evils and ‘benefits’ that go with it were the same then as now. Jesus didn’t endorse it and He certainly spoke to power about all abuse. That’s why power killed Him. But He didn’t quench a smoking flax. He was orthogonal to the natural evils of the world, subversive.
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Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
67
To the OP, that the question can be asked shows how far back we’ve gone since Jesus and Paul.
Of course bible does not support this . That was my point
However as a man who likes history and have been reading it is false to compare the slavery of americas to slavery back then. Surely the abise was there but not everytime and sometimes the slaves had a close bond with their slavemasters ie debtowners… Not to mention some slaves became friends and were adopted to the family. And of course i agree with you that Jesus spoke against it
Really? You’re defending the evils of slavery? And you think Jesus didn’t show opposition to the social order?
These are Paul’s positions, not Jesus’ positions. I completely agree with you if you want to say Paul pummelled his supporters repeatedly with themes about kenosis. But Jesus’ gig was courage and trust, not kenosis. Mark 6-8 is a direct rebuke of the hypocrisy of religious laws and traditions.
Mark is a troublesome book for anyone who wants to posit that Jesus and Paul held the same theological views, especially on subjects such as how to treat other people and how to be in relationship with God.
Needless to say, I’m not a Pauline Christian.
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
70
He didn’t speak against slavery. He spoke against abuse. Which is intrinsic to slavery. Sexual and other physical abuse were rife, rampant. What do you think powered large boats? The Jews would have had personal debt slaves as well as traded slaves, bonded labourers, forced marriages, sex slaves. The Roman Empire including Judea wasn’t a golden age for slaves compared with the Americas prior to 1888 when it was finally banned in Brazil, which still has slaves of course. As does everywhere else. What do you think happened to useless slaves?
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
71
Paul’s epistles were the same as Jesus’s message. The Holy Spirit guided him. There is no such thing as a Pauline christian. Paul was an apostle chosen by Jesus himself to carry on his word. If anything, Paul’s message continued what the spirit was working towards putting more distance between itself and Judaism.
Plus I already showed a verse where Jesus talked about slavery.
If you read the gospels with some discernment, I don’t think you’d come to that conclusion. You do realize that the vast majority of times our translations use the word ‘servant’ it is translating the word δοῦλος (doulos) which simply means slave?
Thus from Jesus own mouth we have…
“A student is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.”
“It will be good for that slave whose master finds him doing so when he returns.”
“Well done, good and faithful slave… enter into your master’s happiness”.
“His master replied, you wicked, lazy slave.”
“whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all.”
“The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his slave… say the word, and my slave will be healed.”
“Truly I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is the messenger greater than the one who sent him.”
“Will any of you who has a slave plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, “come at once and recline at table?”
“That slave who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows.”
Jesus was certainly countercultural, but apparently not in the way you would like to believe, no?
Because I’ve read the gospels with discernment, with an eye to the methodology of biblical studies and biblical archaeology, combined with the study of the psychology of mysticism and the effects of religious ideologies on human brain development, I’ve arrived at the very clear conclusion that I’m not a Pauline Christian.
On the plus side, I now see more vividly than ever the breathtaking wonder of Jesus’ message about God and the possibilities for our relationship with God during our imperfect, confusing human lives of struggle.
Jesus’ message was so radical that even now, 2,000 years later, we have trouble accepting what he taught us about Divine Love and Forgiveness. But the very hard work of understanding Jesus’ message is what helps us overcome our own prejudices and assumptions so we can begin to know God as God really is.
I agree. But we need to include that Jesus also showed us the way to God. A lot of people imply that Jesus was teaching divine love and forgiveness and doesnr accept him for anything else he taught
The era he lived in. First and an apostle who saw Christ and converted to christianity wouldnt talk about hard labor where the master would “treat” better its servant. The era he lived in was in most cases not that extreme as the later slave trade. The known wolrd of the empire had the majority of debt slaves rather than slaves of war . But in essence, there are two kinds of slavery described in the Bible: a servant or bondservant who was paid a wage, and the enslavement of an individual without pay. Now i dont think these words of Paul were for the latter
Um, OK, but I would be interested in hearing your understanding or explanation for all the many things Jesus did say in reference to slavery, that don’t sound so radically or categorically different than what Paul wrote? And if Jesus said all such and more things, how exactly you see this major divide between Jesus and Paul’s views on the subject?
Do you have any idea how much hard work is involved in becoming the “master of yourself” so you can learn to accept God’s love and forgiveness? Jesus speaks of slaves and servants as a metaphor for the aspects of one’s human self that must be subjugated to one’s own “better self” so that the doors of the Kingdom can be opened and God’s love can pour into your very human (but loved anyway) heart.
Jesus’ teachings tie in 100% with recent research in neurophysiology. The biological brain is plastic (i.e. the brain’s function can change if you apply free will, self discipline, daily spiritual practices, and sometimes appropriate medications (such medications obviously didn’t exist in Jesus’ time, since I don’t think we’ll count poppy derivatives)). Respectful mentorship is also crucial to the transformative process.
Maybe you (i.e. the generalized “you”) have human traits that make it easy for you to succumb to temptations like greed, deceit, or pride (Mark 7:17-23), but you don’t have to accept these traits as the final word on who you are. If you (a) ask for God’s help and (b) work your butt off to meet God half way (i.e. to become master of your own thoughts, feelings, and actions) then you can enter the Kingdom during your human lifetime. But nobody who’s done it would ever say it’s easy, and sometimes it sure feels as if you’re labouring under a hot sun in a field of grapes.
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
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