You forget about selection for social behavior in some species which increases the fitness of the group. Bees and ants are good examples. Humans evolved as family groups of hunter/gatherers which increased their ability to spread their genes, not as lone wolfs hunting on their own. Our need to cooperate and our ability to empathize may very well have evolved out of this.
“I should premise that I use the term Struggle for Existence in a large and metaphorical sense, including dependence of one being on another, and including (which is more important) not only the life of the individual, but success in leaving progeny.”–Charles Darwin, “Origin of Species”
So the struggle for survival includes depending on others in your species for survival.[quote=“Relates, post:61, topic:36466”]
I understand that Jesus Christ was the first one to teach that our basic morality must be based on loving God Who created us and gave us life, and loving others who are our brothers and sisters because they too are created and loved by God our Father. Of course there is more to this theology than that, but this is for me the only rational basis for the morality you suggest.
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People who never learn of those beliefs or lack that understanding still love one another.
Thanks Al Leo, beautiful story and experiences. It is interesting to me, as an ex Christian, that practically every believer claims that one can’t know God. Another poster here said that I have the same information that they (a believer) have about God. But what happened to the claims of having a personal relationship with such a God?
I get the arguments about the wonder of the universe. But I don’t get the conclusion that a Christian God must have done it.
I have not forgotten this. I am just showing that “science” does not agree about love. Indeed the famous book, The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins argues against what you way. The recent book of E. O. Wilson seems to agree with you, but is rejected by Dawkins, Dennett, & Co. Survival of the Fittest was the mantra of Social Darwinists.
People who never learn of those beliefs or lack that understanding still love one another.
It is good to have the heart and the mind working together. It is good to know why we are doing something.
One does not have to understand the laws of physics to use them to run a race, but one can perhaps run a faster race when one does understand the laws of physics. If you do not want to understand the ways of love to understand how to live and love better, that is your decision, but that does not means that there are no definable ways of love, and understanding them could enrich your life.
OK, that may be. But the Bible is the book that condones slavery, genocide and, at times, totally random killings.
Exodus 32:26 then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me!” And all the sons of Levi gathered together to him. 27 He said to them, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.’” 28 So the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men of the people fell that day.
Now, this was after the supposed commandment of “Thou shalt not kill” has been given to these people.
If the Bible was a consistently loving book, may be Christians would have a point arguing for the universality of love and morality as evidence for their God being real. But the Bible God is acting very frequently as someone who is not loving. In fact, Satan kills far less people than God kills (if you actually count the murders)
Re atheism as “religion”, with apologies if this horse is already dead - -
For uninteresting semantic and logical reasons, it is silly to argue that atheism is a religion. It is silly and wrong to claim (as religious believers commonly do) that atheists can’t or don’t have ethical commitments.
More interesting, perhaps, is the question of whether and how unbelievers seek to use or claim beliefs and practices that were invented (or appropriated) by religions. These ideas are being explored by thinkers like Alain de Botton and in communities (like one I am part of) that do not (yet) travel under a cultural label like “atheism plus”. To oversimplify: unbelief is not a very effective community anchor, but humanism is, and much of what is valuable about religion is simply humanism.
Yes, I pointed out on another thread that the most one could say is that atheism is a religious outlook, that there is nothing out there, but that it is not a religion. I also pointed out that Jeffrey Schloss, senior scholar for Biologos, has agreed that atheists can lead a moral life. (I’m still trying to figure out exactly what Schloss does at BioLogos!)
@SuperBigV apparently has not heard of “tough love.”
Because he or she took this text from Exodus out of context, she or he does not understand what is taking place.
This event was the result of the rebellion of the people of Israel against YHWH and Moses while Moses was on the mountain receiving the Decalogue from YHWH. YHWH liberated them from slavery in Egypt, but ingratitude and lack of respect w3as the response that YHWH received. In the OT YHWH was the Ruler of Israel, so that rebellion against YHWH was treason, which is punishable in all societies by death.
Moses did not sentence everyone who was guilty to death, but some were killed. The logic of this action was that some did to let all know the gravity of their offence and bring them to repentance. Some died so most might live. Pain often leads to healing.
If the Bible was a consistently loving book, may be Christians would have a point arguing for the universality of love and morality as evidence for their God being real. But the Bible God is acting very frequently as someone who is not loving. In fact, Satan kills far less people than God kills (if you actually count the murders)
Christians do not worship the Bible. We worship Jesus Christ.
We know that “You shall not kill” is to be understood as “You shall not murder.” You have given no evidence that God ordered the murder of anyone, while Satan through Pharaoh ordered the murder of thousands of babies.
I’m probably the main (or only?) culprit around here that has pounded on that drum, and I’ll cease and desist as it seems more provocative than enlightening. I’ll use other words to get my point across. On the second point (about people wrongly thinking atheists can’t share in good morals), I entirely agree with you that this is silly.
I may be in the minority, but I think referring to a Christian God is a serious error. God is God period. Christians profess a way of life and a set of beliefs that, in their view, is the surest way to please the God who is God overall. In earlier posts [Miracle of the Panel Truck] I related an incident involving a colleague, Eric Lien, who was married to a Christian and raising his kids as Christians but could not join them in Christian worship because, earlier in life, some over-zealous Christian missionaries stated that only those who ‘professed Christ’ could be saved. And since his parents and all his ancestors had not done so, they must all be considered “lost”, and presumably damned to hell.
As unbelievable as it may seem, we (Eric & I and two other scientists) were vouchsafed a miracle that affirmed that God loved Eric; he should not worry but should be happy. This was convincing proof to me and to Eric that there was no need to profess a Christian God who demanded worship in a specific way.
[quote=“SuperBigV, post:63, topic:36466”]
But what happened to the claims of having a personal relationship with such a God?
Perhaps both Eric and I are more gullible than scientists are supposed to be, but that ‘incident’ convinced us both that our God is intimately involved in each of our lives, and we are valued regardless of how we choose to acknowledge Him–or even if we refuse to, for that matter.
In teaching an Adult Confirmation class, on two occasions I related this incident. Later I was discouraged from doing so, because it implied that the Catholic Faith was NOT the only route to follow to get to Heaven. The head instructor appeared reluctant to consider the class (mostly youngsters of high school age) as true adults capable thinking on their own.
Al Leo
Roger, you do about as credible job as I am aware of in explaining the difficult passages in the Old Testament. But I don’t think I am the only Christian who would like to disregard 2/3rds of the OT and focus on the two essential commandments Jesus gave us. Of course Jesus was born into, and preached his Gospel to, a Jewish society that was steeped in Mosaic Law, and had he been as critical of the OT as I am today, we would never have heard his name 20 centuries later. Even with the most scholarly exegesis, I find a basic dichotomy between the Old and New Testaments. Probably arising from my background in science rather than philosophy.
Al Leo
Thank you for the kind words, but I do not think that the problems with the OT have much to do with philosophy and science.
The question is How does God work out God’s plan of salvation? The Bible says that God made a covenant with God’s people Israel first and then when the time was right God made a covenant which was available to all humanity through Jesus the Messiah. There are two covenants or testaments, which are related. but not the same. They are different in form and effectiveness as the Letter to theHebrews points out.
Some people say that the New Covenant is just an upgrade from the Old, which is false and leads to legalism. Others days that there is no connection between the two, which is also false and leads to ever spiritualization. They are connected, but not the same, which is very important.
Roger, I am not sure what you mean with “ever spiritualization”. In my view, Jesus and the New Covenant encourages one to take a more mature view of how humans can relate to a God who is infinitely more majestic and powerful than Abraham or Moses could have conceived of. What for me would be totally inconceivable, if it were not for Jesus, is that this all-powerful God is also all-loving. In my view, a covenant with a Chosen People almost guarantees a continuous human conflict. Evolution has already bequeathed us with an unhealthful Us vs. Them attitude.
Al Leo
Here is the two things we can agree on: Religions are bad, and Truth exists!
Religions tend to be man made versions of biblical truth. Jesus condemned the religion taught by the Pharisees. Jesus never created a religion, he instead showed us he is the way, the truth and the life. I know as a young man I abandoned religion because of the fear of dying in mortal sin and be damned to eternal.
I at one point was an atheist and was really into Ayn Rand philosophy about 10 years ago, where truth was the basis for the moral code. Where her philosophy stumbled in my opinion was when she got to the question of choice. She claimed that you have a choice to “think or not to think”, but where does this choice come from if everything is based on cause and effect?
Getting back to whether there is a hell and eternal punishment… I just read C.S.Lewis “The Great Divorce” which captures the point quite well. If we live in a way that we put things before God, we are already in hell - as someone in the blog says, the locks are on the inside. While on earth we have the ability to be saved, but after death on this earth, we are left with this existence on a permanent basis. Hell fire is just a symbol of what this kind of existence would be like, but indeed it will be the hell of our choosing.
I’m not so sure Jesus condemned the religion taught by the Pharisees so much as he condemned the religion lived by the Pharisees.
Matthew 23:3: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practice what they teach.
Also in James 1 we read more about the New Testament criteria by which religions are measured:
If any think they are religious, and do not bridle their tongues but deceive their hearts, their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
It is interesting to me that the New Testament authors don’t seem to be so concerned about steering people to some “right religion” as they are in steering the religious toward doing right.
Our lives always eclipse our preachings, though our tongue is mighty to try to try to shine out from behind our actions, and usually not in good ways, to hear James describe it.
The descriptions of hell in the NT are mainly confined to discussing those that we would consider (either religious or otherwise) to have become so perverse that repentance is perhaps impossible. Thus in the book of revelation, it is the dragon (Satan) and the beast, that are dealt with by God.
I think all of us would not wish to become beasts that torment those around us, nor give our will over to the devil - on this basis I would prefer to fear such outcomes and turn to God.
I would agree that most if not everyone does not want to be evil.
The only problem is that humans have the ability to deceive themselves into thinking that selfishness is good.
This is one of the real problems in the world today. How do we get people, who need to change their thinking, to change their thinking when they think that what they are doing is right.
Hi Roger, I think in your zeal to defend (the indefensible, in my view), you went a bit too far. I’m aware of the context. I’m also aware of a random killing of “your brother, your neighbor, etc…” that was ordered by God (allegedly). Sure, this was some sort of a punishment, but this God likes death very much. He can’t think of other ways to punish someone. You die for such a “big” crime as working on a Saturday.
And what is amazing to me, is that here comes Jesus, who is ignoring the Sabbath, ignoring adultery punishment and he is the GOOD guy? What happened to the GOOD OT God? Christians are so skillful today at justifying the unjustifiable, that they will call both, Jesus (who does not follow the Law) and his Father (who gave the Law) as GOOD.
Lastly, ‘context’ is often used by Christians as a vain word. Death is death. Just look at your Bible and see how many times … “shall be put to death” is used.
Exodus 31:15 For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the Lord; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.
Numbers 31:17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18 But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. 19 And you, camp outside the camp seven days; whoever has killed any person and whoever has touched any slain, purify yourselves, you and your captives, on the third day and on the seventh day.
Note, Numbers 31: 7 says that Israelites already killed adult males. Verse 17 talks about male CHILDREN and God says to go ahead and kill these kids! What context can possibly makes this less barbaric? You might as well justify the Nazis for trying to purify their race. There is no difference, in my view, between what the Nazis did and what Moses did. The only difference, I guess, is that Moses was told to kill the kids by God himself (as Christians believe)
Leviticus 12:14 If there is a man who marries a woman and her mother, it is immorality; both he and they shall be burned with fire, so that there will be no immorality in your midst.
No one wishes to defend the indefensible, nor are Christians seeking to view the actions of Israel as anything but less than what the prophets taught them. However you have omitted (for reasons best know to you) the teachings of the Gospel, in that Christ went to the very heart of intent and thought - thus hatred of others is a form of murder, lust and associated actions is a form of adultery, and so on. The answer in the Gospel is to repent from such sins, and grow into attributes clearly shown in the Gospel - and we should also look through the OT to find the numerous admonish by Moses and the Prophets for Israel to repent, to shown kindness to each other and to the stranger.
It is unfortunate that anti-Christians will obsess with portions of regulations in the OT, and overlook the clear teachings in the Gospel.
