Do languages really "evolve"?

Yes, I’ve been in dialogue with the EES leaders & also several highly anti-EES persons about this. Thanks for adding a few clips from the EES + Templeton-funded website for the benefit of BioLogos readers. You may find more provocation here: http://www.thethirdwayofevolution.com/

Quoting activist atheists like PZ Myers & Jerry Coyne as authorities with ‘evidence’ to support your view on this “Science & Faith” & site is interesting strategy, pevaquark. There are alternatives to that view available, even among atheists: The Biologists Who Want to Overhaul Evolution - The Atlantic

There really does seem to be something exciting going on in biology nowadays - digitally-enabled as with most fields - with both hard-core proponents & detractors - that BioLogos is largely mute about. And whether Laland, Pigliucci et al. can spend that 11 million wisely on EES remains to be seen. This is Royal Society big, so it’s above the current BioLogos paygrade.

It would be nice if you looked into it as Dr. Sy_Garte has & re-visit this thread later.
http://biologos.org/resources/audio-visual/new-ideas-in-evoutionary-biology

What’s perhaps more interesting (but far less tongue 'n cheek funny!) is how your position, your belief … hasn’t 'evolved during this post. Or do you believe your are beliefs “evolving” right now too, jpm? :wink:

This is a huge inductive leap from what I said. I said the word ‘evolution’ could be used in contexts other than biology. Just like I can say “I object to the marriage of politics and religion.” ‘Marriage’ in that context would be synonymous with “linking” or “intertwining” or “coupling.” My use of the word ‘marriage’ to describe an alliance between politics and religion indicates absolutely nothing about my beliefs about marriage as a social institution. If you were to read my use of the word ‘marriage’ in the context I used it as somehow introducing the topic of sex and procreation into the topic of religion and politics, (since ‘marriage’ in other contexts could imply those things) I would be understandably bewildered. I am confident I am using words in a way that the vast majority of English speakers can easily understand when I say “language evolves.” Biological evolution (and all its related implications and connotations) has nothing to do with that sentence.

I don’t have a “theory against evolutionary biology.”

I don’t think morality evolves.

I don’t think biology alone explains the human psyche, human social constructs or relationships, human culture, or human morality. So I think anyone who tries to address those areas from a purely biological-chemical-genetic standpoint will fail to offer adequate explanations. I do not think that means that biology or genetics has nothing to offer social sciences.

There are certainly subdisciplines of linguistics that have nothing to do with ethics. Phonology for example. Or historical linguistics. Sociolinguistics, on the other hand, relies heavily on sociology, anthropology, political science, and psychology and very much deals in ethics and justice issues.

Not what I said. I said the choice of which synonym is irrelevant in the given context, because in that context, they mean the same thing.

This makes absolutely no sense. My qualms about evolutionary psychology have to do with trying to find biological explanations for phenomena that I believe have spiritual dimensions. It has nothing to do with the dictionary definition of the verb ‘evolve.’ [quote=“Al-Khalil, post:13, topic:36040”]
And by the way, the field evo-devo doesn’t exist because that’s redundant according to your synonym mandate?
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Seriously? In the context of evo-devo, (which is short for evolutionary developmental biology) it is clear that ‘evolutionary’ refers to the evolutionary paradigm of biology, not the generic “change over time” sense of the word. I never proposed a ‘synonym mandate.’ I simply used words in the normal way people use words, as I understand it, as an encultured and educated English speaker.

Is this your idea of a fun debate? Attributing wildly non-sensical claims to other people and then watching them respond? I feel like you are intentionally misrepresenting me just to be hostile. We aren’t actually discussing anything. I am basically just defending my fairly straightforward communication from your bewildering accusations about what I “meant” by it.

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Oh, look. Someone else using the word ‘evolve’ generically to mean “change over time” or “develop.”

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It’s not a loaded question. It’s a very simple question. I can answer it myself; “No, I don’t”. See? Simple. Now it’s your turn.

But you obviously don’t hold that same opinion about Logos, do you? You don’t think “trying to find biological explanations for phenomena that I believe have spiritual dimensions” includes the field of linguistics. Am I getting closer to understand you now?

Naturally you already know everything about everything. That makes this dialog so much more interesting.

I still don’t see what your main point about anything here is or what you are really getting yourself off over. I’ve got a copy of the Four Dimensions of Evolution book on my shelf. Good times, but I still don’t get what’s the big deal.

Nice jab at BioLogos again. Clearly you are superior oh wise master who is friends with the elites of Biology.

Thanks for the exhortation. I read this essay. I didn’t listen to the 15 minute or so audio recording. Many parts of the essay are highly speculative and play to god of the gaps type of arguments like:

If there are pointers to God’s role in determining evolutionary destiny, the EES could allow for exploration of these pointers in ways that were not possible using the NDMS model.

The emphasis on the role of environmental conditions in shaping genetic and epigenetic variation in the EES (in addition to the acknowledged role of the environment in selection) provides some ground for theological speculation. It is not much of a stretch for theists to think of environmental conditions as the province of God. From what we know about the complexity of weather, climate, tectonic plate movements, volcanism, asteroid impacts, and atmospheric chemistry, it is reasonable to take the view that what we call “Acts of God” are just that.

What you are pointing me to the following question:
How do we find God in evolution?

The reason for this question is that… It’s hard to see him in the ‘BioLogos’ perspective which is along the lines of the well established paradigm of random mutations + natural selection. So instead, we will broaden our search for God and purpose to environmental factors like tectonic plates which are complex and easier to imagine God intervening. Ridiculous.

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“I feel like you are intentionally misrepresenting me just to be hostile.”

This is not it at all & I am sad that you are currently not aware of (how to form) an alternative interpretation.

Yes, I am aware of this. It is a view we share. And yet you presumably also think morality “changes” and “develops” and is not “static.” It looks breathtakingly like a double standard - mixing change, develop & evolution as synonyms sometimes & not others.

Do you see that I am trying to understand why you include linguistics in evolution’s linguistic web, when you refuse to allow the same with psychology (& that is not your field of professional knowledge)? It is peculiar in the discussions of “science and faith” I have witnessed & been part of around the world. You haven’t established clear criterion for the difference between these fields & I’m asking for a higher level, not mere appeals to colloquial usage.

Last possibility perhaps worth a chance: are you suggesting linguistics is an amoral field, Christy, and that is why importing concepts from evolutionary biology is safe, fine, ideology-free, etc.?

In humility, I will take a break from the thread.

My apology to the upset. You’ve seen quickly how fast heat & smoke arises from “origins of language” topics. That’s why Linguistic Society of Paris banned discussion in 1866.

Could there be a way to discuss “language change” (the master topic) non-evolutionarily? Not if it is assumed & forced by BioLogos leadership that there is only one option, which is “linguistic evolution”. I’d have thought Christy could be more open-minded to alternatives than she is displaying here, especially since quite a few linguists reject the evolutionist impingement.

If the assumption is that anyone who disagrees with “linguistic evolution” theory, must be ___________ (insert whatever negative term Richard Dawkins says, impolitely), then I’d rather aim for higher, more gracious discourse than that.

This term would apply to every activity we know of - even time itself is measured by “change” - yet on this site, evolution is a term used to support Darwinian thinking, when in fact this clearly is wrong - or stated differently, it is a term that looses all scientific meaning.

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I don’t know what having an opinion about Logos means in the first place.

We don’t find “biological explanations” for linguistic phenomena. We find linguistic explanations. We find sociological and anthropological explanations. I believe there are spiritual and ethical dimensions to the power dynamics that influence human societies and relationships, and those power dynamics play out in areas studied by linguistics.

Okay, I will try to give you the benefit of the doubt.[quote=“Al-Khalil, post:31, topic:36040”]
And yet you presumably also think morality “changes” and “develops” and is not “static.”
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Why do I presumably think that? When did I ever mention morality as a product of evolution? I think the average moral consciousness of humanity as a whole has changed over time. But I don’t have a biological explanation for it, I have a spiritual one. I think God has been working for a long time in human history and we are on a redemptive trajectory. That is why treatment of women and marginalized classes has improved in many places over the last several thousand years. I don’t believe it is because humanity has evolved to a higher moral plane because of something biologically intrinsic to humanity.

All I said is that there are recognized parallels between the evolution of language and biological evolution. I only brought it up because it seemed you were criticizing BioLogos contributors for talking about the parallels (like Dennis Vennema is known to do because sometimes the analogies with language change help people grasp concepts that apply to biological change over time.) You have imported an awful lot of meaning I never intended into a couple straightforward statements. [quote=“Al-Khalil, post:31, topic:36040”]
are you suggesting linguistics is an amoral field, Christy, and that is why importing concepts from evolutionary biology is safe, fine, ideology-free, etc.?
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  1. I have already said that where linguistics intersects with sociology, ethics are involved. I do not find evolutionary psychology all that useful for explaining the sociological phenomena that play out in language use and are studied by linguists. I am in agreement with many sociologists assessment that, for example, the “Man” chapter of Sociobiology is lacking in true explanatory power, although I admit that I am taking their word for it, and I have no intention of wasting my time on it personally.

  2. Linguistics does not rely on evolutionary biology except for the relatively few linguists who theorize about how/when the capacity for language and communication via language evolved. I do not know any of those linguists, nor am I all that familiar with their work. The concepts “imported” to explain language change, explain language change, not biology. The concepts of “relatedness” or “inheritance” or “ancestors” are ideologically neutral.

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I wasn’t aware we were talking about the origin of languages. In fact, I clarified in post 5 that indeed, I was not talking about the origin of languages. I have only ever been asserting that languages change over time, and terms that are used in evolutionary biology can be properly used analogously in linguistics.

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That’s a very simple and noncontroversial point.

This is my answer to Sy_Garte in the other thread that he mentioned. Does biology need the theory that all life shares a common ancestor? - #46 by Al-Khalil

Thanks for your review of that essay in God and Nature. I wonder if you happened to have had the time to read the paragraph immediately following the one you quote. I will refresh your memory. It says:

"However, while it is tempting to rush into the possible theological implications of the EES, these speculations on how God might have directed the evolutionary process are not terribly convincing. There have been other equally plausible and equally unapproachable hypotheses put forward for mechanisms of divine intervention in evolution. The stochastic nature of quantum events at the level of the electrons of atoms involved in nucleotide base pairing has been suggested to provide a target for divine action, as have the effects of highly focused cosmic radiation on mutational events. However, the chances of finding good scientific arguments for any kind of direct divine intervention in biology seem to be slim. It could very well be futile to pursue such mechanistic explanations for God’s putative guidance of the process of life’s evolution."

I dont see how one could characterize this as God of the gaps, and the sort of quote mining you indulged in, is not very admirable. And btw, referring to Jerry Coyne as a “leading evolutionary biologist” is a bit hard to take. I dont even think he would refer to himself as such. I think he would much prefer “leading advocate for atheistic evolution”. His blasting of the EES is far from representing any consensus among the real leaders of evolutionary biology. [quote=“Al-Khalil, post:16, topic:36040”]
I thought we had cleared that up.
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We had, and you are correct that we did end up agreeing with each other. The point of my comment addressed to Christy was that your first comment to me (when you didnt realize my actual positions) reminded me of your first comment to Christy, whom I think you have put in the same position. I dont need to speak for her, I think she has done a great job in explaining her positions to you, which are clearly not what I think you thought they were.

Also, I think I should thank you for referring to some of my work, but that has apparently also raised the hackles of at least one of the other participants here. Oh well. We can all stand to learn from each other, and we should all be prepared to be teachers as well as students of the magnificent creation God has given us.

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I do have to apologize for taking a section of your article as I was at a loss as to what Al-Khalil was getting at by referring your work. At first I was guessing he was anti-evolution based upon some posts and he kept blasting BioLogos and I couldn’t seem to follow anything he was saying. So I was trying to see and assumed he was a big fan of everyone who writes against random mutation based evolution as some creationists tend to be. I still hold it’s ridiculous to even speculate (though sincerely apologize for quote mining and ignoring the obvious bold font after the quote) about how God moved the direction of evolution. You are certainly free to guess where God is/was at and how He directed evolution (if He did at all). I still partially stand by my God of the gaps accusation, as it could be said that ‘complex natural phenomena leave room for God to be involved’ as we certainly are limited in our current understanding. Or we go quantum and affirm/suggest God worked there. That’s a good place to say He works since we may never be able to test it. However you are not fully in these God of the gaps camps, affirming His beauty through what is known. So again I do apologize

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Absolutely! I think we can all agree on that. Hoping for a day of peace and charity tomorrow.

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In answer to the title of this thread, I have copied two versions of the Lord’s Prayer from the Wikipedia article on the history of the Lord’s Prayer in English translation. It may seem impossible to believe, but every generation of English-speakers over the thousand years since the Old English version could understand both their parents and their children, yet the language transformed drastically.

The letter that looks like a D with a line through the stem is an eth, pronounced ‘th.’ The reason we see shops named “Ye Olde ___ Shoppe” is that the first printers in England used French-made type, which didn’t have an eth, so they substituted a Y, which looked similar. The other unfamiliar letter is a thorn, also pronounced ‘th.’

ADt 995, Old English[3]
Fæder ūre, ðū ðē eart on heofonum,
Sī ðīn nama gehālgod.
Tō becume ðīn rice.
Gewurde ðīn willa
On eorþan swā swā on heofonum.
Urne gedæghwamlīcan hlāf syle ūs tōdæg.
And forgyf ūs ūre gyltas,
Swā swā wē forgyfaþ ūrum gyltendum.
And ne gelæd ðū ūs on costnunge,
ac alȳs ūs of yfele.

Sōþlice.


AD 1389 Wycliffe[3]
Our fadir that art in heuenes,
halwid be thi name;
Thi kingdom cumme to;
be thi wille don
as in heuen and in earthe;
giv to vs this day our breed ouer other substaunce;
and forgene to vs oure dettis,
as we forgeue to oure dettours;
and leede us nat in to temptacioun,
but delyuere vs fro yue

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I admit to being totally baffled by Al-Khalil’s posts on linguistics. I’ve been retired for many years now and freely admit that I’m not at all current on the latest debates within the linguistics academy. Yet, for the life of me I do not understand what is controversial about the fact that languages evolve over time. Indeed, that’s why we often use language evolution examples when explaining biological evolution. Other than Ray Comfort, I can’t think of anyone denying that languages evolve and diversify as populations are separated and time brings its changes. (And even Ray Comfort’s reactions to the idea were more clueless and even ambiguous than an outright denial.)

Yet, the following was even more baffling:

Huh? Call me clueless but I don’t understand how any field of study is “moral” or “amoral”. And I can’t recall even one instance when I’ve heard a linguist reflect on some moral, non-moral, amoral, or immoral aspect of linguistics.

I admit to no longer keeping current in what was once a major part of my career but this entire thread totally escapes me.

I’ve been a spectator on these forums for a long time and I can’t recall reading any posts from Christy’s husband nor her quoting from his publications. However, my memory can fail me and perhaps I simply missed this?

In any case, I’ve repeatedly examined the above excerpt from Al-Khalil and I remain baffled as to his meaning.

The title of this thread is “Do languages really evolve?” I worked with my fair share of eminent linguists and I can’t recall even one who would say no to that question. Is this a case of paranoia concerning a word that evokes strong emotions? I’ve known plenty of Young Earth Creationists who would concede all sorts of observed evolutionary processes as long as nobody dared to speak the forbidden words “evolve” or “evolution.” Is that what is happening here on this thread?

Sorry to play catch up and be the clueless guy but I just can’t seem to contextualize this thread within any of the usual frameworks. Even a lot of the terminology in this thread escapes me.

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Thank you, and of course, apology accepted. When I first read your comment, I thought “Hmm, he’s right, but that doesnt sound like me”. I was quite relieved when I went back to the article and saw the following paragraph. Peace of Christ to you.

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