Do Evolutionary Theory And Scripture Contradict Each Other?

Hi Jonathan,

By “the first half of my post,” I take it you mean this:

My first response is that I’m glad you’re being honest about what you do and do not know. What really annoys me is the kind of YEC who thinks that they know more about science than “secular scientists” because they haven’t been “brainwashed” by a science degree, and then go on to trot out a whole lot of hearsay, urban legends and other painfully bad arguments against evolution that just prove that they haven’t a clue what they’re talking about, and then question your faith and even your professional integrity if you aren’t acknowledging that Noah had dinosaurs on the Ark. But you’re clearly not in that category.

The second thing I have to say is that you don’t need to be an expert in cosmology to understand where we’re coming from. All you need is a very basic understanding of the core principles of how science actually works — in particular, that it’s built on a foundation of measurement and mathematics. (My A level physics teacher when I was at school actually described the subject as “the art of measurement.”) With that in mind, the yardstick that I use — and no doubt many other people on these forums — when assessing YEC claims is, “how well does it handle measurement and mathematics, and how well does it respect uncertainties and error bars?”

For example, the Answers in Genesis article that you cited doesn’t include any equations whatsoever. It doesn’t even include any back-of-the-envelope calculations to show that the claims it’s making are even plausible — only a couple of vague statements that “creation scientists are actively researching the problem.” But then it starts comparing the distant starlight problem to the horizon problem. The distant starlight problem, obviously, concerns distances of six thousand light years or more. The horizon problem only comes into play when you talk about billions of light years. That’s a difference in size of a factor of a million. It’s like comparing a grain of sand to a mountain. The claim that the two are even remotely the same is just patently absurd.

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I don’t believe God “wrote” the Bible. I don’t believe he dictated his words into the author’s ears and they simply recorded “the Word of God.” I think the author’s were inspired by God’s spirit to record their human stories and feelings and prophesies, all of which had an important meaning in their original context in their own right. They are essentially human products, albeit ones that God inspired and has adopted as his revelation and continues to use by the power of his Spirit in new contexts and with new audiences. But as human products, they show the limitations of the humans who recorded them. The “science” recorded in Scripture by ancient authors reflects their knowledge and worldviews.

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@Christy

Wow… it is so good to hear someone else say these words!.. Perfect!

Preach on Sister!

I think we need to add that Christ stated He came to fulfil the law and the prophets, they spoke of Him, and He gave authority to His apostles, so that what they spoke, He would validate and support. The Church understood this when the Bible was completed.

So I would disagree with you that they are essentially human products, but I would agree, if you meant, the bible is written in human language(s) and translated, so that we need to be aware of the limitations in human communications - these limitations do not hinder the Spirit, while our weaknesses hinder our understanding.

I mean they are created by humans to communicate God’s message to other humans. If God saw fit to become human himself, I don’t think calling the Scriptures a human product is an insult to Scriptures. If God can make himself human, surely he can make his message human too.

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The message is from God and given to us by those that God called to this task - I cannot accept your assertion “… they are created by humans…” This has nothing to do with insults, but an awful lot to do with authority of scripture.

So you don’t agree with @Christy on this point?

So, @GJDS, why don’t Ezra and Nehemiah agree on names, numbers and events?

What’s the point of all that authority if it becomes squandered by the limitations and imperfections of human handling?

@gbrooks9 You’re being obtuse! Or are you abstruse as sometimes you seem a little off-kilter! :wink:

I’ll answer this one, as it is something I think about often.

On Ezra and Nehemiah, are you expecting modern levels of epistemology in a 400 BC or so census tally and genealogies when they are collected from different sources, and different people?
That isn’t where the Authority evident! The authority is in the actions of Nehemiah and Ezra as they acted out on the prophecies saying that it was time to go back to Israel. If it wasn’t time, they would not have been able to go!

I contend that the percentage of inspiration of the original text follows the Pareto ratio of approximately 20% inspiration, and 80% human language, culture, writer’s backstory, ect: The context in which the inspiration is couched.
However the Authority from that collaboration is the inverse, with 80% of the authority coming from the message, and 20% from the writer’s 80% context.(You can juggle the ratios, Pareto’s don’t need to be 80/20).
Even more, the Authority is multiplies by the connections of the overall message spread across so many writers over so many years, all providing a cohesive whole far beyond any single author’s capability.

The translations is always a problem. Remember the old Persian saying “The Translator is a Liar!” However, it appears that Elohim’s Spirit does tend to “shepherd” his word with bad translations being dropped, and newer ones coming along when needed. And in the modern age, with our abilities and research into languages and philology, we have much better translations (NASB for example) than ever a KJV of any version. Though those were “adequate” for the time.

Elohim chose to use people. Otherwise, just carve it on a big rock and drop it in front of the palace (or wherever!)

Elohim’s word was a verbal story narrative, until Moses, Chroniclers, Poets, Priests, and Prophets wrote the written narrative. The Elohim provided the Living Narrative in Yeshua! Lastly, Holy Spirit speaks the living narrative in our hearts.

I don’t worry too much about the limitations and imperfections in the narrative. The Authority is still there even if some people can’t see it, refuse to see it, or misuse it. Nothing new there since Moses!

Respectfully (with a poke or two!) :sunglasses:

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@gbrooks9 @GJDS

Also (where the differing names are concerned), couldn’t one book be recording the Babylonian names of the people in question, and the others record their Hebrew names (for instance, Shadrach, Meshak and Abednego [as they are typically called] are the Babylonian names of these Hebrew men (whose Hebrew names are also recorded in scripture)? Furthermore, a few erroneous names and numbers are insignificant when compared to an entire (major) book of the Bible that is said to be in error of a very deceptive kind…I mean, why would people build life-sized arks about it if it is obviously an allegory???

That pretty much puts it the way I had been thinking about it.

@Christy, this confuses me a bit…are you insinuating that God’s message is not human? What does it mean if God’s message (I assume you mean the Bible) is (or isn’t) human? What does “human” mean???

@J.E.S

Yes… I suppose … on a case by case basis, maybe this would check out … but does that mean counts and actions are also different when written in another language? Why would the head counts differ? And all the other numbers ?

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@jammycakes
That’s the interesting thing about knowledge…if one “knows” that they know everything, one is simply deceiving himself. He is ignorant of the areas of knowledge that he is ignorant in. I, for one, do not want to be that person. When it comes to cosmology, I think I shall wait it out and learn A LOT more about it before I make up my mind on that front…The arguments that you bring up against the AIG article seem valid…and as far as math is concerned, I would encourage you to look for a more technical article about it on AIG’s website. I would be interested to hear what you find…

@aleo
To me (without looking at the context at the moment) this would seem to support the principle of the Trinitarian God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)…

I don’t have as good an idea on this one. Perhaps:

  1. Some of the people/animals in the head counts died or were born, increasing or decreasing the numbers
    or,
  2. Math errors. Note that these errors may not have been present in the original, but may have accumulated through copying errors, or translation errors?
    @gbrooks9

Well, God’s message is God’s and therefore divine. But his divine word is “incarnate” in human stories and language. Eventually, God himself became a human and Jesus spoke for God, as a human. I think the mystery of how human words are God words is similar to the mystery of Jesus being all God and all human.

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@J.E.S

Whew… that was close … you solved the problem… math errors…

Are you sure that’s the answer you want to use?

The whole point of this exercise is to show that whatever you have to do to rectify the problems between Ezra & Nehemia, or between Chronicles and Kings, is the kind of thing that should come naturally regarding fixing the interpretation of Genesis.

Maybe the number of days God took was a pretty big number … and someone decided to just use the last digit of the large number? And so really, the joke is on us. God took millions of days to make finish each phase …

@gbrooks9
We aren’t talking about THAT area, we are simply addressing the apparent discrepancies between the accounts in…Ezra and Nehimia (again, pardon my spelling [if it is wrong]). Not Genesis!

@J.E.S

I see what you mean … so I did some edits on my prior post so it doesn’t look so confusing … and here is a copy of it here…

[Copied from Prior Edited Posting]
The whole point of this exercise is to show that whatever you have to do to rectify the problems between Ezra & Nehemia, or between Chronicles and Kings, is the kind of thing that should come naturally regarding fixing the interpretation of Genesis.

Maybe the number of days God took was a pretty big number … and someone decided to just use the last digit of the large number? And so really, the joke is on us. God took millions of days to make finish each phase …

@gbrooks9
If there are no apparent problems in the Genesis account (like there appear to be in the other books mentioned)… why reinterpret/change it?

How do you count days before there is a sun to measure days?