Distant Starlight and Age of the Universe

But it doesn’t contradict it – the means and methods are not stated. Your argument assumes that the writer intended to convey accurate scientific information, without showing that the Bible ever indicates the least concern about that.

Stop making an idol of science! – that’s exactly what you’re doing when you assert it has more capability that it does.

But that’s exactly what YEC does: it treats the atheists’ view of the scriptures as correct, reading it literally. Many atheists recognize this and delight that YEC is a great ally for them.

I love reading these posts; I had totally forgotten about Minkowski!

Nice distinction!

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What would an immature universe look like?

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Perhaps I should explain a bit more how gravitational wave detection relates to Lisle’s scheme.

Detectable gravitational waves require colossal accelerations such as black hole or neutron star mergers to set into motion. Waves are generally a propagating disturbance in some substance such as water, but massless waves such as gravitational waves move through space at the speed of light. In the case of gravitational waves, space itself is compressed and stretched, which is somewhat counterintuitive to the idea of space as just so much emptiness between objects.

Gravitational wave (GW) detectors use every trick in the book to measure distance much more precisely than your old wooden ruler, employing interference from lasers along perpendicular arms which are kilometers long. The technology is expensive and fascinating, but relevant to the discussion here is that the few detectors that are operational are connected, comparing precision synchronized clocks in an attempt to locate the source of a wave in order to coordinate light spectrum observations.

But it is exactly the relativistic impossibility of synchronizing separated clocks which is at the heart of the difficulty measuring the one way speed of light. A couple of points in regards to the time synchronization of gravitational wave detectors: 1) they are in the same inertial frame aside from the known rotation, and 2) their clocks are synchronized assuming the one way speed of light is the same as the two way speed. By these assumptions, as a GW propagates at the speed of light through the planet in a quarter of a tenth of a second, this time of flight is easily registered as different times of detection between the three or more observatories. The differences between event timestamps with a bit of trigonometry yields an area of sky being the direction of the incoming wave.

None of this in itself proves that the speed of the wave matched the average speed of light, or “c”. Bear in mind that the clocks were synchronized assuming a constant speed of light, and as Lisle points out, if that assumption was wrong the time of flight differences would still register the same, because the clock calibration and the event measurement would be following the same coordinates. But that is not the issue.

Let us assume Lisle is right, and that light is instantaneous with respect to the observer. That would mean that each observatory directly sees the wave immediately in the same instant. That is what Lisle’s equation states, and as he correctly says himself, stipulating instant propagation is equivalent to a coordinate system. So however the clock in each station was set, there would be a pattern of timestamps, offsets between stations A, B, …n, that are used to triangulate the source of the wave.

Herein lies the crux. For the pattern of timestamps, it does not matter if the station clocks were synchronized by time of flight or slowly moving clocks, or even if the clocks are synchronized at all. Say one gravitational wave observatory’s clock was set using a timex watch from walmart, the next observatory is set by a fake street vendor Rolex, and the other by the shift start whistle at the local mill. They are all wrong, but still the same pattern of timestamp offsets will always present for every event, no matter where in the sky the GW is from. By Lisle’s formula, THE DIRECTION MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO THE TIMESTAMP PATTERN, BECAUSE EACH OBSERVING STATION DIRECTLY AND INSTANTLY DETECTS THE WAVE IN ALL CASES. Conversely, given infinite speed it would follow that you could not use the pattern of timestamps to infer the direction of travel for the GW. The reality, of course, is that times of detection are routinely used to triangulate the direction of the GW, so Lisle is wrong.

The ability to triangulate GW sources is consistent with light traveling at the same or different speeds by direction in space, or frames of reference, but that is not Lisle’s formulation. He discards direction in space for direction to the observer, and that is incompatible with GW triangulation and special relativity.

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We are talking about distant starlight…if God created a mature universe in an instant, explain exactly how that lying to us? The bible repeatedly tells us God is timeless…where is the lying there? I see it as perfectly consistent with the narratives claims.

we have actually only measured two way speed of light right? So in order to compare precision synchronized clocks with distance and time between them, we must calculate the apparent linear speed of light/time difference between the clocks right…we dont actually have a linear one way measurement? (thats how i assume the “time/distance between signals” dilemma is resolved at least)

EDIT…oh i see, you answered this in the next paragraph :melting_face: (see below)

I think Im making a fair assumption that in the case of Lisle’s theory it would also require that the universe simply appeared everywhere at once?

I sense a theological problem with Lisle’s idea there given the bible says God stretched out the heavens (eg Psalm 104) which would not seem to align with everywhere all at once.

Yes, but more consequential to his theory, if a GW event in one direction registers at station B 0.01 second after station A, a GW event from the opposite direction would also register at station B 0.01 second after station A. No matter the direction of the GW, ever and always station B would show up 0.01 second after station A, because by Lisle’s formula the GW appears to every observer instantaneously. Every detection would thus have the identical separation of time at each observatory. The timestamps would be registering not any time of flight, but rather just their commissioning. A coordinate system with multiple observational origin points cannot distinguish direction, which is clearly contrary to reality.

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If you come home and find 30 yards of gravel in your drive, and you know that the largest load a truck can haul is 10 yards, you conclude that there were three deliveries, 10 yards at a time.
If you look at rock strata and measure the folding, and the result is that a certain layer is 400k years old, you conclude that 400k years have gone by.
In either case, the evidence indicates what happened. In a “mature universe”, ancient starlight indicates that it has been traveling for millions of years – but it hasn’t. That turns God into a liar, because He put in place the evidence that the stars the light appears to be coming from didn’t actually emit that light!

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yep i understood that part in your previous post. You explained this really well Ron and i found it very easy to understand (you should have been a teacher).

My understanding is that Lisle is attempting to find a solution to his belief that God did not create a mature starlight. My criticism there is that the Bible clearly says God stretched out the heavens in the verse i quoted earlier…so for me that means that both seemingly discredits Lisles idea theologically, but that it would help in the distant starlight dilemma. Let me explain why i think that…

Caveat - I am not exactly sure where i stand on the theological implications of the standard big bang model…there are problems with it biblically, however, leaving that aside for a minute…

If we think of a hand grenade exploding in a vacuum (not that the big bang was an explosion but just go with me on this). At the exact time of the explosion, the particles (if you like) are ejected outwards and these include photons of light (the bright flash). Initially these photons are close together and do not have far to travel, however, as time passes, they move farther and farther away. In a vacuum, i would imagine they would continue on for vast distances.

Should we be able to measure both the orgins of the photon source and time in the above? I would say yes.

So for me in this moment of thought, i dont see that the distant starlight problem is really an issue given the light sources originally started within the casing of the hand grenade where they were close together and we are now measuring them where they sit vast distances from each other. The difference of opinion/scientific concensus/theology there is simply how long it took God to do the “stretching out”.

The mainstream model i believe is suggesting that because light travels at a known speed, it must have taken 13 billion years to travel from the outermost known reaches of visual space to reach us…so therefore the universe must be at least that old.

However, as with the miracles of Christ (raising a biologically dead body which has already experienced irreversible cellular death after 3 days), why does God need 13 billion years to speak some thing into existence? Just like the miracle of the ressurrection, He doesnt.

We cannot measure that which we havent seen being made, we can only measure the finished product and that is hugely important for the Christian and as such this to me seems to be one of the most satisfactory resolutions that maintains harmony with Biblical statements on the topic of Creation.

The other option would be to believe that the wider universe has always existed and that there is only one dimension where both God and mankind resides…im of two minds with that explanation because science i think is starting to believe there is more than one dimension and the bible could support that i think.

What am i missing there? (im sure i will have missed something as im writing this off the cuff as i think about it)

It’s the details.

It’s one thing creating a universe that just looks mature in fairly generic, non-specific, subjective ways. It’s a different matter creating a universe where the maturity consists of masses and masses of highly coherent, self-consistent details: specific events happening at specific times with specific causes and specific effects, with times and dates often pinned down to a fraction of a percentage point.

Take Adam and Eve for example. It’s one thing for them to be created as adults. But it would be a different matter if they were created with scars from skateboarding accidents in their teens that had never happened, tattoos commemorating events they had never taken part in, or dental implants replacing teeth that had never been extracted.

Or Jesus turning the water into wine at Cana. It’s one thing for that to have maturity that is only discernible through its flavour and quality—subjective matters discerned only through the taste buds of the master of ceremonies. It would be a different matter altogether if they had a mass spectrometer out the back and a whole lot of DNA sequencing equipment that could chemically and biologically have identified the wine as chartreuse from a specific vineyard in France from the year 75BC.

People who don’t have a problem with the creation of a mature universe very often have very sketchy ideas of what the appearance of maturity actually involves. The fact of the matter is that it involves very specific patterns of evidence that serve no purpose whatsoever other than indicators of age. Why should zircon crystals contain lead, for example? Or why should the amount of lead that they contain correlate closely with distance at a rate that very closely matches modern-day direct measurements of continental drift? These are things that don’t make a shred of sense whatsoever unless the Earth really is as old as those measurements tell us that it is.

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“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass

So who is lying, what is a lie, is political. And psychological. Accuse a liar of lying and he has to lie down (i.e. double down). Nothing works but power in politics. And psychology.

A basic problem with the claim of infinite one-way speed of light is that we don’t see distant objects as they are now. We see them in earlier stages.

The speed of light does not directly give a distance to the cosmic background. We can use parallax to measure distances in our galaxy with geometry. Based on that, and on physics calculations, we can determine that certain objects such as Cepheid variables and type 1 novae have fixed patterns of brightness, and use those as further markers. The more distant novae can be used to build the relationship between redshift and distance. The understanding of how stars function and age gives a separate calculation of the minimum age of the universe.

Christian understanding should be rooted in the Bible. But science is a valuable check on whether our understanding of the Bible is correct. Young-earth creationism, in its modern form, is not biblical. Jesus and Peter did not affirm a young earth nor a global flood. Those interpretations are imposed without regard for context. Leviticus has a sabbath year and a sabbath of sabbath years. Exodus 20 is no proof of a one week creation.

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Why wait three days? By your reasoning, that was dumb – after all, He could have done it instantly.
You’re pretty much arguing that because God could do something your way, then He must have.

Oh, wonderful analogy!

Absolutely.

And that’s by judging their words against the ordinary use of language.

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Supernova 1987a is a supernova explosion that happened 160,000+ light years away. We have photos of the star before it exploded.

According to your scenario, that star never actually existed, nor did the supernova actually ever happen. Your vision of the universe means we can’t trust anything we see in the night sky, or at least anything farther away than 6,000 light years away. If we can’t trust God’s creation, why should we trust God’s Word?

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I like this question. And my understanding is that while I do not know fully the mind of God, he possibly revealed the answer to that question in his response to Job and as sung in Psalm 19, as well as Jesus’ word regarding his care for the most insignificant creatures.

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Another response to that question is that having any problem with God “needing” billions of years means you would have the same problem with any answer … Why would God need a whole day to just “speak” something into existence? Why should he need an hour? To have problem with eons of time is to also have a problem with entire days. In fact, St. Augustine took that very tack and thought that the creation days must just be symbolic because it was mysterious to him why an omnipotent God would be mucking around for entire days when he could be doing (and likely did, in Augustine’s view) things in an instant.

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Cuh! You just don’t get it do you? The speed of light is OBVIOUSLY infinite incoming! It’s all REAL TIME!

Was that sarcasm? Some reading later are never sure - especially if they don’t know you well.

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What?! Flesh tearing? Nohohoh! The very idea. Fuh!

So the justification for the name calling is, “Everyone else is doing it…”?

I remain unconvinced. I’m not familiar with him, but if Mr. Lisle were to ever choose to be a member of this discussion board, I would object vehemently - and call it out and report to a moderator - to anyone assigning such epithets to him (or anyone else). And I maintain the objection to name-calling even if one isn’t a member of this particular discussion board.

There are all sorts of more generous interpretations one can give. For instance, I find Dr. Bart Ehrman’s arguments absolutely and egregiously atrocious, laughably wrong, and beyond inanely stupid… but at worst I accuse him of utter incompetence, laziness, or blind adherence to his foregone conclusions… all very problematic, of course.

But as reprehensible and atrocious and false and downright stupid as his arguments and claims are, I would never straight up accuse him of “lying” as this would entail my magically reading his motives. I might even go as far as saying that his claims are deceptively slanted… but “lying” claims to know his inner motives.

At worst, perhaps I have said about those like Bart Ehrman or Elaine Pagels something to the effect of, “Given this kind of argument, they are either being intentionally decietful trying to pull something over on their readers, or they are grossly and embarassingly incompetent” (and generosity makes me assume the latter)… But to assign an epithet such as “Lyin’ Bart Ehrman”, without clairvoyant knowledge that he is in fact intentionally lying, I find lacking kindness and generosity and basic respect.

So I still respectfully object to the name calling, for what it is worth. Interact with a person’s actual arguments and show why they are wrong without hand-waving them by calling him or her a liar.

This kind of name calling makes me want to explore Mr. Lisle’s position further… when someone simply points out a person’s errors then I am often convinced. When someone wants to hand-wave someone’s arguments by name-calling… it makes me wonder if there’s something to their position as their opponents seem to feel the need to resort to name-calling rather than engaging with the actual arguments.

I think, here, we are at an impasse. Derek Muller’s video was well researched and documented, and he wasn’t inventing this stuff from whole cloth. Veritasium is rather well respected and he doesn’t put things in his videos if they aren’t scientifically researched, documented, and defensible. (There was even a video where a physics professor insisted that Derek was wrong on a topic and made a $10,000 bet to prove it… and ended up paying Derek the $10,000.) I don’t believe there is any significant disagreement from his basic observations in the scientific community. He references Einstein’s own equations about the speed of light, which defines the speed of light as time it takes light to make the round trip.

If you believe that you (and/or @pevaquark ) have the ability to demonstrate conclusively that you can determine or measure the one-way speed of light, I recommend you submit your thoughts in a formal research journal… you would undoubtedly be awarded a Nobel prize in physics for demonstrating something that no one else (Einstein included) has ever been able to demonstrate.

Or at minimum, maybe you could convince whatever subject matter experts who wrote & edited the wikipedia page that they are wrong…

“Although the average speed over a two-way path can be measured, the one-way speed in one direction or the other is undefined

Anyone else who is a true expert want to weigh in? is “c” actually defined or otherwise understood empirically to be both the one-way and two-way speed of light, as @T_aquaticus appears to be maintaining?