"Discerning the Dawn: History: History, Eschatology and New Creation" by N.T. Wright

I really liked the point about how Europeans and Anglo-Saxons view myth, one as seeing connection with the past, the other saying the stories are just made up. That relates, I think, to his four definitions of history: events, narrative, task, meaning. Theology has to do with the second and fourth, which are connected in the case of Christianity to real events. Some then reject any hint that some stories are in any way myth because when they hear “myth” they think “fiction” – a view that sprang up in societies founded by Anglo-Saxons. But that’s a misunderstanding that strips much of the Old Testament of the intended messages. By failure to grasp the original worldview, we end up with a fiction we can’t recognize until we actually grasp the concept of different worldviews.

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I really appreciated his point that ideas about history can be formed to hypotheses that can be tested against facts we know about history. It struck me that many YECists accept that when it comes to showing the reliability of the scriptures but reject it when it comes to science.

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I really, really liked the point about predictive historicism, the idea that there is a direction to history and we know what it is and therefor we should work to make it happen.

It struck me as he continued that theme that just as one couldn’t tell that Jesus was God by looking, so we can’t tell that God is in charge of history by looking at events. God being one Who hides Himself is an expression of Incarnation.

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I also loved the reference to scholars who reject the deity of Christ on the grounds that it conflicts with Jewish monotheism – I think they need to learn fom Dr. Michael Heiser.

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When he said to theologians “Don’t reject history – you have nothing to lose but your Platonism” I had to pause it I was laughing so hard.

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Last, what he said about historicans and archaeology resonated since I was just thinking of that while watching a video about what figures from the Old Testament can be counted as historical. One point that was made was that we can now (to use Wright’s term) hypothesize that David was a real person because we have discovered mention of “the House of David”, a mention that doesn’t confirm but definitely suggests that David was real. It made me wonder about Solomon: archeologists have found several things (stables, mines) that the scriptures mention in connection with Solomon, but no mention of Solomon’s name, so the hypothesis from that would be that his name ought to be appearing – and as wright noted, we can’t do an experiment to find it, we have to wait for those who dig up old ruins and old texts.

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If one looks for a ‘spokesperson’ for the enlightenment - and I suppose there are many candidates … from Hume to Huxley or from Bacon to Descartes … then to be sure, (depending on whom you see as its voice) you might struggle to see Wright’s case that it has set itself up against any earlier linchpins of history (Christ). And specific voices (like Hume or Huxley) might have been quite happy to put it in just those terms, but other enlightenment voices would have deemed themselves to be within the fold of Christian perspective and would not put it thus, but insist on growth of what we now call the modern scientific enterprise as being yet another outgrowth of discipleship - far from being in competition with theistic perspectives - maybe instead even rooted in them. Perhaps Biologos enthusiasts largely align this way? In any case, I can see (and share in) your doubts about this proposal of Wright’s then.

On the other hand, maybe the enlightenment could be viewed as yet another of the ‘principalities and powers’ that has yet to be brought into submission. A ‘spirit of the age’ if you will that does set itself up against all other contenders. As such, I think that spirit has been alive and well (or maybe up until recent years anyway?) … we call it ‘Scientism’, and Biologos exists in large part because of the [past] and possibly still present prevalence of that very spirit. It seems to me that contemporary, strident voices for that might be culturally muffled right now - but far from gone or defeated I should think. And I furthermore suggest that I’m naive if I think those very voices are entirely ‘over there’ in some tribe of people we can easily identify and consider set apart, rather than recognizing the presence of those very spirits within ourselves who’ve all been thoroughly steeped in enlightenment presuppositions by now.

I share in your curiousity about how well Wright’s thesis will hold up as these lectures proceed.

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Just so you know, there are plenty of people in Canada that have politicized the issue of reconciliation with Indigenous Peoples. Please don’t put Canada on a pedestal :neutral_face:.

I think N.T. Wright and others properly place Jesus in His historical context of political extremists of the day. Even his disciples somewhat expected Him to bring in the Kingdom of God by political or other force. Instead, Jesus showed that His Kingdom is about peace and love and forgiveness (and even persecution).

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That actually referred to ‘heavenly’ beings who had been assigned by YHWH-Elohim to portions of the Earth to manage them, who rebelled and thus became enemies of God’s people.

In the above context, a “spirit of the age” would be an actual spirit, one of the fallen spiritual beings include in “principalities and powers” (there’s a whole hierarchy in Second Temple Judaism, and if I’m recalling it correctly these guys were the top of the heap). There is some indication that the spirit of one nation can gain ascendance if that nation rises to prominence and so becomes dominant for a time; I suppose that would qualify as the spirit of that age.

Just by the way, I like to think of the rebel spiritual realm as a ‘cosmic Mafia’; the behaviors as described in the literature are a pretty good match. We tend to think of Satan as being sort of the king of all the fallen spirits/angels, but that’s extremely over-simplified: the highest of those rebels are like Mafia bosses, perfectly content to war against each other while they extort obedience from the ‘peons’ (us humans). Satan has preeminence due to being “more crafty” and having been the first rebel, but he’s not in command of the whole shebang.

In the context of the time, Jesus had no choice but to be a “political extremist”; politics and religion in Judea were a messy mix and anyone who could gather crowds for whatever reason became part of it.

I was just listening to a video by an ex-Muslim who was saying that Hamas is just the logical result of the Qur’an, that violence is inherent in the system (humor intended). It strikes me now that violence is also inherent with Christianity, except in reverse: Christians should expect to be met with violence from the outside whereas Muslims are supposed to inflict violence.

We can also take them metaphorically, eh?

The principalities and powers? Paul apparently considered them real, so why shouldn’t we?

I think there’s some theological debate, though, about what these “real” things could be. Some have suggested they are human governments and rulers for example.

I’m trying subtly to say, “This is not something worth arguing about.”

That doesn’t fit the bits in the scriptures well. It’s a position that Dr. Michael Heiser calls “cowardly”, scholars not wanting to accept the biblical worldview. Another scholar who has studied what Heiser calls “the unseen realm” says the view that human rulers are meant can only be sustained by really mangling a number of passages but isn’t quite as blunt as Heiser.

This, by the way, is an aspect of something in another thread that one person definitely isn’t aware of, that when Peter wrote about the angels who rebelled it isn’t about Satan and his followers, it’s a reference to the start of Genesis 6, which itself is a very brief statement of what can be found in the Book of Enoch. Deuteronomy 32:8 where YHWH divides up the nations “according to the number of the elohim”, a reference that can’t be made to fit the “human rulers” idea; it’s a reference to God having divided the nations among His divine council (who then proceed to rebel, deciding they want their people to worship them instead of YHWH).

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Its a bit off topic for this thread, but just for the record, I’m “agnostic” about what these principalities and powers refer to…whether supernatural or human or a mixture of both? I don’t think it affects the point that Paul is making so for me it’s no theological hill to die on.

That said, with all due respect to Heiser’s dedicated scholarship and his devoted fans (and I have nothing against him), many of his detailed claims about the organization of the heavenly realms come from the book of Enoch and other Jewish writings not considered canonical (or necessarily inspired) by many in the church. Such writings may be “of interest” but I’m more hesitant than Heiser to make confident factual statements about the details of the organization of the spiritual realm based on those data. Hence my agnosticism. But of course Heiser would call people that don’t agree with his interpretation of the text “cowardly”, eh? Seems a bit ad hominum ?

Heh. It isn’t important to salvation, but it’s part of a theme in the Old Testament scriptures that gets echoed in the New, that God divided the nations among His divine council (thus “principalities”); in Second Temple Jewish lore there were also lesser ‘angels’ who aren’t bound to particular nations but can move around (thus “powers”). Though given that both Enoch and Peter speak of the rebel divine council members as having been imprisoned in darkness under the Earth (Tartarus) presumably the original principalities have been replaced. But either way, understanding this clarifies a few things.

Oh – it also explains where demons come from; they’re not the fallen angels, they’re the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim, the ‘angel’/human hybrids of Genesis 6 (plus possibly disembodied spirits of the later Rephaim and even Anakim).

So when we talk about spiritual warfare, these guys are the enemy.

They should be, since New Testament writers made reference to them.

Sure, but NT writers might have referenced other common literature of the time that was known to their audience to make their own theological point, without endorsing everything contained in that other source as literal, inspired or authoritative…

Welcome to the 4 fortnight in our discusssion. Previous lectures are still fair game, as well as thoughts on lecture 4.

NAVIGATIONAL TABLE OF CONTENTS
for this thread:
“Discerning the Dawn: History: History, Eschatology and New Creation” by N.T. Wright
Below are the links to sections of this discussion. Please see the OP for more information.

Opening Post (OP)
Jan 5, 2024: Lecture 1 - The Fallen Shrine: Lisbon 1755 and the Triumph of Epicureanism
Jan 19, 2024: Lecture 2 - The Questioned Book: Critical Scholarship and the Gospels
Feb 2, 2024: Lecture 3 - The Shifting Sand: The Meanings of ‘History’
You Are Here: Feb 16, 2024: Lecture 4 - The End of the World? Eschatology and Apocalyptic in Historical Perspective
Mar 1, 2024: Lecture 5 - The Stone the Builders Rejected: Jesus, the Temple and the Kingdom
Mar 15, 2024: Lecture 6 - A New Creation: Resurrection and Epistemology
March 29, 2024: Lecture 7 - Broken Signposts? New Answers for the Right Questions
April 12, 2024: Lecture 8 - The Waiting Chalice: Natural Theology and the Missio Dei

Heiser is genuinely puzzled and seems grieved by Walton’s reading of the angel and demon passages. Heiser still maintains a respectful tone towards Walton.

I despise podcasts without transcripts – I can read three times as fast as they ever talk.

Maybe tomorrow.

If by ‘real’ you mean literal personas, like thinking that the four horsemen of the apocalypse will be actual figures on horses … then I would suggest - that is exactly the kind of way not to take Paul or any of the apostolic writing seriously. Recognizing the sympolic (or metaphoric, if you will) nature of these things is merely “learning how to read” as Wright already suggested in a past lecture. Wright doesn’t even spend much time dispensing with those who fail to recognize the literary (sympolic nature) of these things. But he has directed a couple bits of humor toward those who do … “one should recognize that if the writer speaks of the sun being darkened and stars falling from the sky, this will not be followed by … ‘and the rest of the country will be experiencing partly cloudy with some scattered showers’…” Or in another point Wright quips …"If at some point I look up and see Jesus riding across the sky on a flying horse, the first thought that will probably come to me would be “well I’ll be damned!”

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Thank you for pulling out points from this interview, @Terry_Sampson.

What are peoples’ thoughts on Wright’s assessment of Lutheranism? (When does he let pass an opportunity to get a dig in against them, as well?!)

In my experience, the Lutherans can’t be blamed for this. The independent Baptist churches I have been a part of don’t seem to know or care about the launching of the new creation until after all the blood and fire and judgement of Revelation. There is awareness of it in the Presby church I am part of now, but it’s not emphasized, although I think emphasis would not be unwelcome.

Not sure who the “would be” Christians are. I know plenty of real ones who believe this. But more digs aside, I think he makes a good point about the results of not grasping what the kingdom of God is and when it is where. It’s hard to imagine a kingdom-now oriented church treating the world and its people as disposable.

@KLW, I need to spend some time today working over the Kingdom matters and come back to your post.. I wonder if I’ve misread him on the matter.

I do, too. I need to run this idea past some of my professional historian friends. I’d like to get their take on the general premise.

Straight up Hegel. Dialectical progress was, to him, not a matter of random events leading to new social and historical outcomes, but that they had a specific direction. His influence on Western thought is profound.

I thought the academic and theological anti-semitism that Wright mentioned was interesting. And terrifying. Look at what it allowed to happen.

Still more posts to catch up on.

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