Disappointed at Lack of Comment Options on Blog Posts

I prefer to start independent threads instead of making one of an article as it allows to pick up several questions raised in separate threads.

The one that stuck me is the lack of references transferred as the article originates from a separate piece that carried the references. Considering the prevalence of other timespans like lunar calendars in ancient times the timespans mentioned could refer to cycles/periods other than the 365 day calendar years. Unfortunately reference 3, apparently excluding the argument for lunar cycles is nowhere to be found :frowning:

prefect. reference. Thanks for that link.

1 Like

If you click on the references arrow at the bottom of the article, you open the list below. Everything is optimized for reading on phones now, so that’s why the articles aren’t formatted like a pdf.

General works about Genealogies:

Robert L. Fowler, “Genealogical Thinking, Hesiod’s “Catalogue”, and the Creation of the Hellenes,” Proceedings of the Cambridge Philological Society 44 (1999): 1-19.
Richard S. Hess, “The Genealogies of Genesis 1-11 and Comparative Literature,” Biblica 70 (1989): 241-54.
Marshall D. Johnson, The Purpose of Biblical Genealogies (Eugene: Wipf and Stock, 1969).
Kenneth A. Kitchen, On the Reliability of the Old Testament (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2003), 440-447.
Eugene Merrill, “Chronology,” in Dictionary of the Old Testament Pentateuch, ed. T. Desmond Alexander and David W. Baker (Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 2003), 113-122.
John H. Walton, “Genealogies,” in Dictionary of the Old Testament Historical Books, ed. Bill T. Arnold and H. G. M. Williamson (Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 2005), 309-316.
R. R. Wilson, Genealogy and History in the Biblical World (New Haven, CT: Yale Univ. Press, 1977)

On Numbers

Denise Flanders, The Rhetorical Use of Numbers in the Deuteronomistic History: “Saul Has Killed His Thousands, David His Tens of Thousands” (Leiden: Brill, 2022).
Marco De Odorico, The Use of Numbers and Quantifications in the Assyrian Royal Annals; SAAS III (Helsinki: Neo-Assyrian Text Corpus Project, 1995).

Technical Academic Articles on Genealogies and King Lists

P.-A. Beaulieu, “The Descendants of Sin-leqi-unninni,” in Assyriologia et Semitica: Festschrift für Joachim Oelsner anlässlich seines 65 (Münster: Ugarit-Verlag, 2000), 1-16.
Mark Chavalas, “Genealogical History as ‘Charter’: A Study of Old Babylonian Period Historiography and the Old Testament,” in Faith, Tradition, and History: Old Testament Historiography in its Near Eastern Context, ed. A. R. Millard, J. K. Hoffmeier, D. W. Baker (Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns, 1994), 103-128.
J. J. Finkelstein, “The Genealogy of the Hammurabi Dynasty,” Journal of Cuneiform Studies 20 (1966): 95-118;
A. Malamat, “King Lists of the Old Babylonian Period and Biblical Genealogies,” Journal of the American Oriental Society 88 (1968): 163-73.
Piotr Michalowski, “History as Charter: Some Observations on the Sumerian King List,” in Studies in Literature from the Ancient Near East, ed. J. M. Sasson (New Haven: AOS, 1984), 237-248.
Piotr Steinkeller, “An Ur III Manuscript of the Sumerian King List,” in Literatur, Politik und Recht in Mesopotamien: Festschrift für Claus Wilcke, ed. W. Sallaberger, K. Volk, and A. Zgoll (Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 2003), 267-92.
Claus Wilcke, “Genealogical and Geographical Thought in the Sumerian King List,” in Dumu-e2-dub-ba-a: Studies in Honor of Åke W. Sjöberg, ed. Hermann Behrens, Darlene Loding, and Martha T. Roth; Occasional Publications of the Samuel Noah Kramer Fund, No. 11 (Philadelphia: University Museum, 1989), 557-571.
Alexander Johannes Edmonds and Eckart Frahm, “Three New Kings of Assyria,” Journal of Cuneiform Studies 78 (2026): 27-59.

References

1Though it may be overly complex, some interpreters have found it curious that Abraham’s 175 = 7×52; Isaac’s 180 = 5×62; and Jacob’s 147 = 3×72, and wondered whether numerical patterning was at work.
2It is of interest to note that the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, our oldest witness to the text (completed in the third century BCE), has the lifespans virtually the same, but gives different numbers for the ages when the next in line was fathered. Consequently, the length of time from creation to the flood varies in these ancient traditions (Hebrew MT, 1656 years; Greek Septuagint, 2242 years; Samaritan Pentateuch, 1307 years). The differences are not just copyist errors, they reflect different traditions that reflect intentional variations. See Jan Christian Geertz, Genesis 1-11 (Leuven: Peeters, 2023), 227-230.
3All evidence confirms that from the earliest writing and throughout Semitic populations, a base ten system was used. The only exception is the Sumerian sexagesimal system, a combined base ten and base six system, which would not offer a solution to understanding the Genesis genealogies.
4See more in depth discussion in Walton, “Genealogies,” 313.
5Specifically, there are no genealogies noting the age when each person died and how old they were when they produced the next generation. Egyptian sources, mostly from the Persian and Hellenistic periods, preserve long linear genealogies, sometimes extending 15-20 generations, often connecting to priestly lines.
6Observable in the Sumerian King List and the Egyptian king lists as recorded in the Turin Canon and the Hellenistic historian, Manetho.
7“The first and most important point is that genealogies in oral cultures are fluid. They change constantly to fit new circumstances. A common use of genealogy is to support a claim of rightful succession to power.” Fowler, “Genealogical Thinking,” 3. Extensive discussion of fluidity and examples from across the ancient Near East are documented in Wilson, Genealogy and History.
8This scholarly consensus is supported by the Kassite nature of his name and by the compositional history of the Gilgamesh Epic. See Beaulieu, “The Descendants of Sin-leqi-unninni,” 3-4.
9P.-A. Beaulieu, “The Descendants of Sin-leqi-unninni,” in Assyriologia et Semitica: Festschrift für Joachim Oelsner anlässlich seines 65 (Münster: Ugarit-Verlag, 2000), 1-16, p.4.
10Genealogies reflect an attempt to give shape to the past. This can be supported by recent studies showing that king lists were redacted with an agenda in mind that effectively sought to reshape the past. See Alexander Johannes Edmonds and Eckart Frahm, “Three New Kings of Assyria,” Journal of Cuneiform Studies 78 (2026): 27-59.
11Fowler, “Genealogical Thinking,” 3.
12Malamat, “King Lists of the Old Babylonian Period and Biblical Genealogies,” 170-71; he also shows these features when comparing the various texts that treat the genealogy of David.
13Daniel D. Lowery, Toward a Poetics of Genesis 1-11: Reading Genesis 4:17-22 in Its Near Eastern Context (Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns, 2013), 113.
14This is of course also recognized as we compare the genealogy of Jesus in Matthew 1 with what we know of the kings of Judah from the Old Testament.
15Dwight Wayne Young, “The Step-down to Two Hundred in Genesis 11, 10-25, Zeitschrift für die alttestamentliche Wissenschaft 116 (2004): 323-333.
16Kitchen, On the Reliability of the Old Testament, 445-46.
17It should be noted that of the many skeletal remains unearthed in the process of archaeological work going back to the earliest humans known, none offer any evidence of longer lives. In fact, the averages put life spans much shorter than they are today.

Acknowledgements

This article was developed using materials previously published in the following works:
John H. Walton, Genesis; NIV Application Commentary (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2001).
John H. Walton, “Genesis,” Zondervan Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary on the Old Testament 1 (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2009).
John H. Walton, “Genealogies,” in Dictionary of the Old Testament Historical Books, ed. Bill T. Arnold and H. G. M. Williamson (Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 2005), 309-316.

2 Likes

Christy,
Thanks for the follow-up.

With respect, this article is so much desperate hand-waving all dolled up in riffing off certain scholarship but with no meaningful connections.

Here is the real issue - beginning with the title - “Making Sense of the Numbers of Genesis”. This author is desperate to “make sense” of this literature to correspond with her a dogmatic priority. Likewise the opening line in her first paragraph - “One of the greatest stumbling blocks to faith in the Bible has been, and is, the numbers found in Genesis—”

Her dogmatic priority is “faith in the Bible” - and this is what drives her - NOT honest evidentiary bases. Why is “faith in the Bible” - and not just any faith but her OWN dogmatic faith (or, anyone’s Bibliological construct) - even needful or important or relevant?

Then, μη γενοιτα, she quotes Hugh Ross…. EGADS!

Her efforts both summed up above and here - “How then can the great ages of the patriarchs
and other problematic numbers of Genesis be explained?

She is desperate for an “explanation” - for life to make sense - for this literature to “make sense” in the context of her dogmatic priority.

This is NOT scholarship - this is not integrity - this is just another religious apologist doing their thing trying to gussy it up to people who are slightly more educated to keep herself emotionally/intellectually comfortable with an ideology (idol).

I earlier provided the obvious - these are simply reflective of the ethos for deifying authority via long life-spans - and, as such, utterly fanciful.

What concerns me far more is why we are so desperate to need and work from dogmatic priority??? Why this or that dogma - all ego-centrically based (cf. Calvin - the great deifier of his own ego…).

Ok, I am sure you get my point.

Best,
Greg

1 Like

I think the best reason is because the numbers, taken literally, contradict the story of Genesis. The story says Isaac’s birth to Abraham when he was 100 defied nature (Genesis 17:17). But by the numbers, Abraham himself was born to a 130-year-old father (Genesis 11:32; 12:4; Acts 7:4). Noah had sons at 500, and one of those sons, Shem, celebrated his centennial with a son of his own.

The words of Genesis show two or three generations alive together. But doing the math on the numbers, it can be up to ten. Shem was still alive at a spry 550 when Isaac was born; he only missed Jacob and Esau’s births by a mere ten years. The numbers put Noah at the tower of Babel and place his death in the same year Abraham is born. The story does not.

The words of Genesis tell one story. The numbers, plainly, tell another. This is a clue that the numbers are not intended plainly.

When Jesus calls Herod “that fox,” should we admit Jesus got it wrong, or double down on Herod being a brush-tailed pointy-nosed canine? Clearly, there are more options. One can believe in miracles and still dismiss out of hand that Herod was a talking animal. The word fox can evoke something other than its plain meaning. This is a normal way to use words. It’s also, especially in ancient times, a normal way to use numbers.

There’s a far more compelling pattern in the patriarch ages (from Victor Hamilton’s Genesis commentary, page 709):

175 = 7 × (5 × 5): Abraham
180 = 5 × (6 × 6): Isaac
147 = 3 × (7 × 7): Jacob

So Abraham’s age is equal to seven copies of the square of five, Isaac’s is five copies of the square of six and Jacob’s is three copies of the square of seven. And what would come next in the pattern? We might expect one copy of the square of eight, yet instead of 64, Joseph’s age is 110. This is because Joseph doesn’t merely continue the pattern, he wraps up the whole sequence:

110 = 1 × (5 × 5) + (6 × 6) + (7 × 7)

In Egyptian culture, 110 was seen as the ideal lifespan, maybe partly due to it being composed of the squares of five, six and seven. And since Joseph brings the family of Israel into Egypt, becomes second to Pharaoh and marries an Egyptian, it makes sense that this number would be associated with him. The number 110 fits Joseph like a fox fit Herod. But by making a wider pattern with his fathers where those squares are divvied out, Joseph is shown to also be the culmination of the promised line.

This is how the Bible typically uses numbers symbolically – not to insert hidden meanings, but to reinforce some of the same messages already in the text. Both the numbers and text combine to show Joseph as a model Israelite and model Egyptian.

The words tell one story. The numbers, symbolically, tell it again.

4 Likes

That’s not the correct parsing of the sentence. It’s “one of the the greatest stumbling blocks to faith that people encounter reading the Bible.” She is not advocating faith in the Bible, and yes, she is writing to an Evangelical audience that does not share your particular concerns and finds “a stumbling block” where you do not find a stumbling block. I don’t understand why people writing to humor an audience who is not you somehow feels like an insult to you.

What is the point? The point is that science illiteracy in the church is harmful and building bridges with the community of people who does have these foundational presuppositions about the authority and inerrancy of the Bible matters because they have power and influence over funding and education in our country. The goal of BioLogos is not to convert people to a specific posture on the fiction/non-fiction status of biblical texts. It’s to foster dialogue between scientists and people of faith on issues at the intersection. The ages of the patriarchs only matter to this discussion because people taking them litearally goes hand in glove with other anti-science approaches to the text, and it is the rejection of valid science that is what BioLogos ultimately wants to challenge, not their views on inerrancy or the authority of Scripture.

Again, sometimes you just need to realize an article wasn’t written for you. It might be helpful to someone else, and even if it humors assumptions you don’t share, it could help someone with those assumptions become more open to the validity of scientific assertions that seem to contradict people’s understandings of what the Bible teaches is true.

thanks. I went too far and ended up in other resources :slight_smile:

2 Likes

To make sure I am following you - are you suggesting in her quotes that I provided that she was intending them as “humorous”??

If that is the case that sense is not easily identifiable to the average literate person…

But I may be misunderstanding your intent.

I am not intending this or any article is written by me - but I am identifying a dogmatic presupposition that is overtly manifested as the motivating ethos as she repeatedly states. That ethos is not scholarship - it is brute apologetics - having an answer in search of evidence….

This latter epistemological method should be without merit by anyone but certainly someone who claims to follow Jesus of Nazareth…wherein we are called to “prove all things”….

Last point - I will still look forward to make my annual donation…:slightly_smiling_face:

As well as getting an update 990 as I have in the past!

Best - and thanks. I will demur as I have several miscreants that need “handling”….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1C8wEFjyVo

No, I’m suggesting that the preposition “in the Bible” is not subordinate to the noun phrase headed by faith, it’s headed by the noun phrase “stumbling block.” You could move it around and say, “one of the biggest stumbling blocks in the Bible to faith.” So I don’t believe you are correct that she was talking about “faith in the Bible” and I don’t think it’s charitable to imply she thinks of the Bible as the object of Christian faith devotion, not God/Christ/the gospel.

Yes, she is trying to find an explanation acceptable to her audience who believes the Bible is true and authoritative and also probably knows people didn’t live to be 900 years old. I don’t understand how wanting an explanation that works for her audience makes her so ridiculous, even if she is one of the people committed to the Bible being true and authoritative. So what? Wanting what you believe to make sense is normal. It’s better than believing stuff that makes no sense because it’s what you were told you had to believe to be a Christian, isn’t it?

Being dogmatic is about insisting everyone agree with you or be evaluated as wanting. It’s not about having beliefs centered in Evangeical dogma. None of the quotes you mentioned are evaluating people who don’t read the Bible from an Evangelical perspective as less than Christian. They are simply presuming an audience. So if you are saying that you think BioLogos should try harder to be more inclusive in its presumptions of audience, sure, noted. But if you are saying BioLogos shouldn’t publish articles by Evangelical Bible scholars because you don’t share their belief in the authority or inerrancy of Scripture, I think everyone will have to agree to disagree. Evangelicals are part of the target audience and part of the team. Unless they are asserting something that is factually false, the editors aren’t going to “correct” their faith tradition.

Christy,
As mentioned, I wanted to demure…

But to clarify - you are significantly misunderstanding my point/intention - which has nothing to do with Biologos - nor advocacy of a dogmatic position - but is simply an observation of evidence of dogmatic priority - both in Walton’s post and Carol’s article… nothing more, nothing less. I offered my own observation based on the evidence - scant as it is - other than, well, the reality of human life…:grinning_face:

1 Like