Did Noah's Flood Kill All Humans except his family?

My last reply to you did address your reply. Did you mean a different reply? Remember I was out of pocket for a week with limited access and may well have missed something.

Let’s look at your scripture reference in context.

The purpose of Scripture is to “make you wise for salvation”. Scripture had a purpose long before the science came up with the data you seem to love. I asked you before (and you ignored the question) to explain what people with no science were supposed to get from Scripture. I think 2 Timothy answers that question for everyone except you. Origins is NOT a salvation issue (a comment which you also ignored). It is to Ken Ham as you well know.

And I will just throw this in here while I am thinking of it, but your idea that rain shadows could cause an extended period of no rain in Eden is hard to believe. A rain shadow reduces but doesn’t eliminate all rainfall. If conditions at the top of the mountain do not support rain the moisture will flow over the mountain and rain forms when conditions allow. Even stacking several rain shadows doesn’t get you to zero. Winds don’t always blow in the same direction. It even rains in the Sarah Desert.

And to get back to the four rivers you are so proud to have found. If a river totally changes it’s direction is it really the same river? Do you have any data that would say the headwaters of the four rivers are even the same as today? You found 4 rivers that flowed into the Med basin and came to the conclusion that they are the same 4 rivers. And as I pointed out you have a spring from Eden joining 4 rivers when the Bible says the spring was the headwaters of the rivers. Your creative re-translation of the Hebrew not withstanding.

Enough conversation for you?

You quote Scripture: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work

If you knew how this knowledge has supercharged my faith you wouldn’t doubt this has more fully equipped me. The Scripture is real.That, to me says we have a real God.

You say it is to make us wise for salvation but ignore the 2nd part which insstructs us to convict us (which this stuff does convict me of my lack of faith), for training in righteousness? Yeah, this has made me think more about my failings because God is far more real now. And I have already addressed good work part. Sure makes me more willing to witness. Yeah, I admit I wasn’t great at that in my life because of my doubts about the reality of Scripture.

And your point is? that verse doesn’t only speak of salvation issues. It is one out of 4 by my count.

Agreed that it doesn’t entirely eliminate it, but one can wonder how long it could be between rains on such a deep basin with rain shadows in every direction. Parts of the Atacama went without rain for over 400 years, and they are not in the same rainshadow setting. Further, just because there is a small chance of rain doesn’t mean it actually rained. There is a small chance of me winning the powerball but that doesn’t mean I have actually won it.

I figured that was so obvious, but it seems to me they get exactly what my wife gets from it and I can assure you she has no science background. They actually have a better faith. But where do YECs go when they start doubting the reality of Scripture? I can speak personally for this. When I left YEC, I got no comfort or good options to deal with the issue I had from accommodationalissts. They just all told me it didn’t matter if scripture was true or not. It does matter very much.

True, but any humidity in the air of the Sahara will be far far less after it falls 3 more kilometers. I question if you understand this fact or are just ignoring it.

LOL, It is in China. The Huang He has changed course several 10s of times over the past 50000 years. What you think the name must change every time the Mississippi changes its course to the sea? Are we to say it is a diffferent river when it finally goes through Morgan City? Besides, I thought you were big on the headwaters. The headwaters of the Euphrates would still be the same, all the way down to when it takes its first right angle turn away from the Mediterranean where it used to go. The headwaters of the Tigris would have been the same as well.

No, I found four rivers which matched your previous criterion of paying attention to the headwaters, and now you disappoint me by changing your standard just so you can play gotcha. I think that means you have no real standards on this from which to argue a postion except for what is expedient to take a potshot at my view. Just be honest that that is what you are doing. First with Eden you concentrated on headwaters, now you don’t, except that you changed back to headwaters with Eden again.

And you obvously didn’t look up my Toodles river analogy, which you can search for in this thread. It seems to me that you have totally ignore that my friend.

Off to chemo tomorrow morning.

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Sincere prayers, best wishes, and keep safe.
I want to say I love reading this technical stuff about geology in this back and forth. Thanks to you and those who interact with you that i learn from. May everyone keep safe.

Interesting comment. So your faith is based on the science and not the person and works of Christ?

To me the conviction is part of salvation.

When a parcel of air descends 3 km it will warm due to the compressional heating but the amount of water vapor does not change.

I think a river is defined by more than the location of the headwaters. The course and ultimate mouth of the river are what makes a river a river. If the Mississippi was to change direction and flow into the great lakes would you call it the same river?

No my criteria is the four rivers share the same headwaters, the spring from Eden. That’s what the Bible says. You have four rivers with different headwaters that the spring from Eden simply joins.

I told you I was out of pocket and this is something I missed so no I am not ignoring it.

What were the conditions in the Dry Mediterranean Basin?

I am going to show how new data changed what I believed. It is important for anyone to follow the data. I had planned to post this yesterday but new (to me) and interesting data came to my attention… Here is the story.

I spent a lot of time building an atmospheric model for the Mediterranean. I made certain assumptions outlined below in the detail section, if anyone is interested, and was ready to present it. I had gone to some effort to determine that the basin was probably 3 km deep where Eden was. This is the summary.

I calculated temperatures for the bottom of the basin given a range of initial conditions. Going into this I felt that the biggest issue would be hellish temperatures. There is some Chickenwire dolomite on the bottom of the Med and that requires temperatures above 35C (95F). But this basin was so deep, deeper than anything on earth today, that I was very worried about the temperature. The ones I calculated would probably be close to daily maximums as it would cool off at night, and do so quickly if there was not much humidity.

I assumed a couple of reasonable temperatures for sea level during the Late Messinian and then used a variety of adiabatic lapse rates to calculate the temperature and the dew points. I had calculated the following. are:

Lapse Surface 3000 m 3000 m
rate C C F
9.8 288 316 107
9.8 300 328.5063 131.8942
7.5 288 310.2 98.94668
7.5 300 322.2 120.5467
5 288 303 85.991
5 300 315 107.591

The pressure down there would be 1.4 times our sea level atmospheric pressure.


And no, the line is not linear.
I calculated dew points for how much uplift of the air by the infilling water it would require to cause rain.
For the temperatures calculated, I also calculated dew points at -3000 m for 50% relative humidity and 75% relative humidity. Basically at 50% RH, the air must be uplifted 2 km in order to reach dew point and cause rain. At 75% RH, the air needs only a 1 km uplift to reach the dew point and cause rain. If the water pouring into the basin saturates the air, then almost any rise in water surface would start the condensation of moisture out of the air. Rain would be an inevitable part of this process. I stand by that because that is simple physics.

Put a known RH air in a balloon and then walk it up a tall mountain at 7 m per day. I will guarantee that when that balloon reaches a dew point temperature, the moisture will condense. It can’t help it. Bill said a slow rate of fill wouldn’t cause rain, but the laws of dew point condensation a have nothing to do with speed. Also,Speed of uplift has nothing to do with the physics that happens to moist air at a dew point temperature.

I was ready to discuss a rather warm life in the basin when I ran into a surprise. Temperatures calculated from pollen and fossil plants, were a bit cooler and more temperate than other studies said, and so I expected. MAT is mean annual temperature. The rainfall was a little higher, but then, the plants are mostly in the higher elevations, meaning the Alps, The pollen and leaves would be carried downhill into the basin.

" For the post-evaporitic interval CAM reconstructions are available for Maccarone (Fauquette et al., 2006: ca 5.5 Ma to 5.3 Ma), where MAT is evaluated between 16 and 20°C for most spectra , but up to 23-24.5°C for a few others, with most likely values oscillating between 17 and 20°C (only one spectrum shows a lower MLV around 15°C). MAP is less stable along the succession. The first part of the sequence is characterized by large intervals, from around 400 to 1300 mm - MLV 1100 mm -, and smaller intervals from 1100 to 1300 mm, whereas the second part of the Messinian is characterised by more precise ranges from 700 to 1300 mm with MLV around 800 to 1200 mm ." Bertini A.; Martinetto E… Messinian to Zanclean vegetation and climate of Northern and Central Italy / - In: BOLLETTINO DELLA SOCIETÀ PALEONTOLOGICA ITALIANA. - ISSN 0375-7633. - 47 (2)(2008), pp. 105-121., p.117

Here is their 'Sketchy" reconstruction. We are interested in the Post evaporative Messinian. this is after the water from the Atlantic has been completely shut off.

The fascinating thing is that this area of Italy was uplifted and was at a lower elevation when the Messinnian rocks were laid down. I went and looked up the mountains they mention as being uplifted at https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17445647.2017.1316218

The Bertini article cautioned:

" Of course, we cannot provide direct palaeoclimatic evidence for the palaeobotanically barren primary gypsum beds (Vena del Gesso basin), however it is curious that for all the clastic sediments adjacent to such beds we can definitely reconstruct palaeofloras and vegetation types which are never connected to desertic or subdesertic conditions ." Bertini A.; Martinetto E… Messinian to Zanclean vegetation and climate of Northern and Central Italy / - In: BOLLETTINO DELLA SOCIETÀ PALEONTOLOGICA ITALIANA. - ISSN 0375-7633. - 47 (2)(2008), pp. 105-121., p.119

So, I did a bit more looking at temperatures and found some interesting chemical estimates of temperature from air bubbles in the salt deposits. It was surprisingly cool down in the bottom of the basin where the halite was being deposited.

" In South America at latitude 47°S, till was deposited sometime between 7 m.y. and 4.6 m.y. ago, at a time when the local climate was colder than today’s . During this same interval glaciers extended to sea level in southeast Alaska, and widespread cooling of the ocean surface in middle latitudes, worldwide marine regression and change in the oxygen isotopic composition of ocean water occurred. From the last three events, major late Miocene expansion of the Antarctic Ice Sheet has been inferred, on the assumption that the history of North Atlantic ice rafting precludes the existence of Northern Hemisphere ice sheets until 3 m.y. ago. This is disputed, first because precipitation in Antarctica would probably have decreased at temperatures below today’s, second because the Antarctic Ice Sheet cannot expand appreciably until buildup of Northern Hemisphere ice sheets has lowered sea level, third because virtually no late Miocene sediments are present at the Labrador Sea DSDP sites that are critical to the reconstruction of North Atlantic ice rafting history, and fourth because the scale of late Miocene glaciation in Alaska is at least permissive for simultaneous buildup of ice at similar latitudes further east. If global ice sheet volume at the end of the Miocene was greater than it is today, by an amount that would have lowered sea level by several tens of meters, the excess ice did not accumulate in Antarctica, but in the Northern Hemisphere, chiefly in North America away from the Atlantic coast." J.H.Mercerab and J.F.Sutterab, “Late miocene—earliest pliocene glaciation in southern Argentina: implications for global ice-sheet history,” Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology, 38, 1982, p. 185-206

And then I found a direct measurement of temperatures down on the bottom of the Med and was very surprised:

“Taking into account both the present-day annual SST of the Mediterranean Sea around study sampling sites, which range between 18 and 20C , and the lower latitude of the Mediterranean Basin during the MSC, our homogenization temperatures point to a colder climate during the Messinian halite deposition, in comparison with the present interglacial climate stage. This conclusion is consistent with the Messinian SST of 16–18C estimated through indexes of coral richness in shallow-water carbonates from different sites of the Mediterranean Basin [Bosellini and Perrin, 2008].” Giulio Speranza, et al, " Paleoclimate reconstruction during the Messinian evaporative drawdown of the Mediterranean Basin: Insights from microthermometry on halite fluid inclusions, " G3, Volume 14, Number 12 11 December 2013, p. 5073

The halite deposition was down around 3 km or slightly deeper. This is where the surface of the remnant Mediterranean was, and it was much cooler than I could have imagined. Speranza et all calculated the surface water temperatures down in the basin by using fluid inclusions. If the water temperatures down at minus 3 km deep were 18-20 C, then that is 68 deg F, which is incredibly cold. So, what is the problem?

It turns out that Mercerab and Sutterab were correct, this was a very cold time on earth. The Messinian is 6 myr ago to 5.33 or the end of the shading.
image

So, because of two oddities in earth history this time was one of intense cold which, would ameliorate the temperatures I had calculated above. Now, no doubt day time air temperatures were higher and what they calculated was average temperature, but this new information makes Eden a much more comfortable place than it otherwise might have been. Now I have to figure out how to incorporate this information.

Details of my calculations. .

Because the situation in the Messinian was so different from anything on earth today, it is natural to ask a question about what were the physical conditions at the bottom of this hole. We know a variety of large bodied mammals lived there so it couldn’t have been a true representation of hell. If it were that, they couldn’t have lived. The question revolves almost entirely around the depth of the basin at the time of Eden, and that has been the subject to much debate in geology. Thus, what I will present is my view of how that is answered.

There are some constraints on the depth of the basin. The Nile is said to have carved a 4+ km deep canyon in the granite platform of the African continent. This means it had to be that deep at some point during the crisis. It doesn’t have to be that deep at the time of Eden. Below is the topo map of the current basin. http://blogs.reading.ac.uk/oceansatreading/files/2016/05/Med_Topo_2.png
image
We are not interested in the deep areas of the central Med, but are interested in the area from Cyprus to the Nile and west of there, which is where I think Eden lay. It is said that the sedimentary thickness in this area is about 10 km

" The Levant basin contains over 10 km of Upper Jurassic through Cenozoic rocks that overlie a rifted Triassic to Lower Jurassic succession [Gardosh and Druckman, 2006; Netzeband et al., 2006a]. The southern and eastern flanks of the basin are cut by deep canyons of Oligocene and Miocene age [Druckman et al., 1995]." Madof, Andrew & Connell, Sean. (2017). Northern Levant basin (Seismic stratigraphy of a previously unidentified Messinian fluvio-deltaic succession: Implications for pre-Zanclean lacustrine flooding in the eastern Mediterranean). " In book: Seismic atlas of the “Messinian Salinity crisis” markers in the Mediterranean and Black Seas - Volume 2, Chapter: 17

What we need to do is remove the Pliocene through Cenozoic sediments and we will get an idea of the depth of the basin when it was dry. Yes, it would be a bit shallower than this because of isostatic adjustments, it does get us into the ball park.

We can do this by some depth sections taken from seismic. Like this section out from the NIle. It shows that in the Med, above the sale we have approximately 2 km of Pliocene-Cenozoic sediment–above the orangis Abu Madi and above the purplish salt.
image

Looking back up at the bathimetry picture we are talking about basin depths for the Messinian surface of between 2200-3000 m deep.

A look at a seismic line off the Israeli coast shows 1 sec of Plio-Cenozoic section.
image
Such sediments generally have velocities of around 8000’/sec but, this is two-way time, so we have about 4000’ or 1.2 km or so. This given the pink is around 1600 m (not the steep slope) off the coast, then we are around 2800 m for the Messinian surface in this area.

So, knowing this, how hot was it down there? We all know of the heat in the Dead Sea and Death Valley. It all depends on how much humidity is in the air. The dry adiabatic lapse rate is 9.8 deg C/ km and the wet is about 5 deg C/km. The saturated lapse rate (at the dew point) goes down with higher temperature, and at high temperatures and one atmosphere it becomes as small as 1 deg/km for saturated air
image
saturated adiabatic lapse rate (SALR)

The rate of cooling of ascending saturated air. It is approximately 1.5°C/1000 ft but may reduce to as little as 1°C/1000 ft in the warm saturated tropical regions. It also may exceed 2°C/1000 ft when the temperature of the air falls below the freezing point until it is no longer saturated and the lapse rate falls to that of dry air. Saturated adiabatic lapse rate | Article about saturated adiabatic lapse rate by The Free Dictionary

Non-raining lapse rates are generally in the area of 5-7 deg C/km.

Here is what I calculated using sea level temperatures. Remember, these would be the hottest temperatures of the day, not the average temperature.

Lapse Surface 0 m -3000 m -3000 m
rate C C F
9.8 288 316 107
9.8 300 328.5063 131.8942
7.5 288 310.2 98.94668
7.5 300 322.2 120.5467
5 288 303 85.991
5 300 315 107.591

I grew up in an area that had 115 deg days while I was there. it was miserable but even outside if one had shade, one could bear it so long as one had water. We didn’t have air-conditioning when I was a kid. My parents either couldn’t or wouldn’t afford it.

For the temperatures calculated, I also calculated dew points at -3000 m for 50% relative humidity and 75% relative humidity. Basically at 50% RH, the air must be uplifted 2 km in order to reach dew point and cause rain. At 75% RH, the air needs only a 1 km uplift to reach the dew point and cause rain.

Now, the western basin of the Mediterranean was filled with water to -400m prior to when the eastern basin started filling. It had to top the Sicily sill first. The water pouring into the basin at as fast as 200 mph would quickly take the relative humidity up to near 100% which would mean, dew points were reached quickly there and it had rained for months before the process started in the eastern part of the Mediterranean.
image
When the eastern basin started filling, again the velocities of the water approached 200 mph. See below, 100 m/s is 223 mph. This would create turbulence.

image
I know it has been challenged that it would rain with a 4-10 m/day rise in the water surface. It was asserted I believe that the slow rate of uplift would not cause rain. I think I can push back on that. Take a balloon and fill it with a known humidity of air, where you know the dew point. To claim that such a slow uplift would not cause condensation and rain is equivalent to saying that if you moved that balloon up a mountain at the same rate that when it got to the dew point temperature, the water would not condense on the inside of the balloon. Such an observation would mean that in addition to temperature alone, some other physical processes would be required to condense the moisture. Such a discovery would be big, but it would require a different physics for condensation NOT to occur.

Thus I do claim that this constant uplift of now fully saturated air would cause a very long rainstorm the likes of which the earth has not seen since.

I thought about how I would respond to this as I went to sleep last night Bill. It is a predictable question I have been asked many times. I am going to point out some events with the disciples. Let’s look at Paul first. What was it that made Paul so dedicated to spreading the Gospel? It was a personal experience which he KNEW to be true. He had no doubt about the history of that event. He didn’t doubt the miraculous thing that happened to him. He spent 3 yrs in the desert working out the theology and figuring out how he had been wrong and how to now fit Jesus into his previous theological views. But make no mistake, his theology didn’t give him the certitude he exhibited. the real history of his experience brought real excitement to his life. Paul’s faith was bolstered by this event. His faith was still in the Christ. Faith ain’t a ‘mental assent’ it is a life changing thing.
It was the historical event on the Damascus road that was a peg point for his faith just as the Turkish translator experience was a peg point for my faith, but, the reality of the flood has become another peg point. .

What would cause an old man above 80 yrs old, to risk his life chasing a young man whom he at led to the Lord, but who had fallen away and was now the leader of a murderous gang of thieves. John chased after this young man risking that when he met the underlings, they might kill him before he could get to his friend. I would suggest that he KNEW that Jesus rose. He experienced it. Unlike the Mormon witnesses to the golden plates, John and the other disciples never recanted. They experienced a real historical event.

You and I, on the other hand, didn’t experience that resurrection. Trying to believe it is true amongst all the doubts atheists can come up with is not the same as when one has observational evidence to back up one’s faith. It isn’t faith in the event, it is that the events(like the flood for me) is evidence that the faith is correct. John had this kind of certitude and it impelled his faith. This comes from John’s Spiritual grandson. St. Clements told this story so his hearers would :“be still more confident” That is the same reason I am now telling my flood story, so christians can “be still more confident” of their faith

John and the thief
XLII. And that you may be still more confident, that repenting thus truly there remains for you a sure hope of salvation, listen to a tale? which is not a tale but a narrative, handed down and committed to the custody of memory, about the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant’s death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos, he went away, being invited, to the contiguous territories of the nations, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole Churches, there to ordain such as were marked out by the Spirit.
Having come to one of the cities not far off (the name of which some give), and having put the brethren to rest in other matters, at last, looking to the bishop appointed, and seeing a youth, powerful in body, comely in appearance, and ardent, said, “This (youth) I commit to you in all earnestness, in the presence of the Church, and with Christ as witness.” And on his accepting and promising all, he gave the same injunction and testimony. And he set out for Ephesus. And the presbyter taking home the youth committed to him, reared, kept, cherished, and finally baptized him. After this he relaxed his stricter care and guardianship, under the idea that the seal of the Lord he had set on him was a complete protection to him. But on his obtaining premature freedom, some youths of his age, idle, dissolute, and adepts in evil courses, corrupt him. First they entice him by many costly entertainments; then afterwards by night issuing forth for highway robbery, they take him along with them. Then they dared to execute together something greater. And he by degrees got accustomed; and from greatness of nature, when he had gone aside from the right path, and like a hard-mouthed and powerful horse, had taken the bit between his teeth, rushed with all the more force down into the depths. And having entirely despaired of salvation in God, he no longer meditated what was insignificant, but having perpetrated some great exploit, now that he was once lost, he made up his mind to a like fate with the rest. Taking them and forming a hand of robbers, he was the prompt captain of the bandits, the fiercest, the bloodiest, the cruelest.
Time passed, and some necessity having emerged, they send again for John. He, when he had settled the other matters on account of which he came, said, “Come now, O bishop, restore to us the deposit which I and the Saviour committed to thee in the face of the Church over which you preside, as witness.” The other was at first confounded, thinking that it was a false charge about money which he did not get; and he could neither believe the allegation regarding what he had not, nor disbelieve John. But when he said “I demand the young man, and the soul of the brother,” the old man, groaning deeply, and bursting into tears, said, “He is dead.” “How and what kind of death?” “He is dead,” he said, “to God. For he turned wicked and abandoned, and at last a robber; and now he has taken possession of the mountain in front of the church, along with a band like him.” Rending, therefore, his clothes, and striking his head with great lamentation, the apostle said, “It was a fine guard of a brother’s soul I left! But let a horse be brought me, and let some one be my guide on the way.” He rode away, just as he was, straight from the church. On coming to the place, he is arrested by the robbers’ outpost; neither fleeing nor entreating, but crying, “It was for this I came. Lead me to your captain;” who meanwhile was waiting, all armed as he was. But when he recognized John as he advanced, he turned, ashamed, to flight. The other followed with all his might, forgetting his age, crying, “Why, my son, dost thou flee from me, thy father, unarmed, old? Son, pity me. Fear not; thou hast still hope of life. I will give account to Christ for thee. If need be, I will willingly endure thy death, as the Lord did death for us. For thee I will surrender my life. Stand, believe; Christ hath sent me.”
And he, when he heard, first stood, looking down; then threw down his arms, then trembled and wept bitterly. And on the old man approaching, he embraced him, speaking for himself with lamentations as he could, and baptized a second time with tears, concealing only his right hand. The other pledging, and assuring him on oath that he would find forgiveness for himself from the Saviour, beseeching and failing on his knees, and kissing his right hand itself, as now purified by repentance, led him back to the church. Then by supplicating with copious prayers, and striving along with him in continual fastings, and subduing his mind by various utterances of words, did not depart, as they say, till he restored him to the Church, presenting in him a great example of true repentance and a great token of regeneration, a trophy of the resurrection for which we hope; when at the end of the world, the angels, radiant with joy, hymning and opening the heavens, shall receive into the celestial abodes those who truly repent; and before all, the Saviour Himself goes to meet them, welcoming them; holding forth the shadowless, ceaseless light; conducting them,to the Father’s bosom, to eternal life, to the kingdom of heaven.
St. Clement of Alexandria
Who is the Rich Man That Shall Be Saved?

When water pours into the basin BENEATH the dry air, which water is being sprayed into the air, I can assure you the moisture in the air will increase. Have you ever stood at Niagara?. the humidity there is high because of all the spray. Thankfully the water temp is cool. Bill, I don’t think you have even given a thought to what happens when water comes in BENEATH the dry air. Are you saying NO moisture would be transferred? That there would be no evaporation? How unrealistic.

So, if any part of a river changes course we must rename it? Ridiculous… Here are the changes in the course of the Yellow River. It’s name was never changed

image

Does an oxbow getting cut off and isolated from the river count as a need to rename the river? (which is a change of course for the river,) You didn’t specify how large a course change needs to be.


Better get busy trying to name all these oxbows along each and every river in the world.

And here are the Mississippi deltas from the past few thousand years. When I was geophysical manager for the Gulf of Mexico for Oryx and Kerr-McGee, we used this information to know where sand rich targets for our prospecting were(edited to add, the ones we were interested in were much older). And looking at the old deltas worked. But since the ultimate mouth changes every few thousand years, again you best start coming up with names for each of the rivers which is different from Mississippi. Sheesh, how ridiculous. Bill, you are stretching.
image

And very soon, the Mississippi will finally break through the River Control structure and wipe out Morgan city as it tries to do what it normally does, change deltas. Better have a name available for the new river. I would suggest The Toodles River as a candidate.

Edited to add a picture of me from 1994 on the banks of the Huang He (Yellow River). To get there tthis was my first successful communciation in Mandarin Our guides had stopped to discuss the local geology and mentioned that the Yellow river was 100 m that way. I asked them "could we take a walk see Huang He? (Ke bu ke yi, women zou yi zou, kan yi kan Huang He?). and they said yes!

YangXinmin and Glenn Morton at Yellow River 1994

I have not previously referred to this article on why Adam is old, well, at least I didn’t point people to the link because the page was all trashed up. they fixed it for me.

Here is my article on “Dating Adam” https://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1999/PSCF6-99Morton.pdf

No, it isn’t a chronicle of Adam picking up Eve in his 57 T-Bird and going to the drive-in. It concerns how old Adam is.

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You seem to have a problem with keeping the conversation straight.

I was reacting to this.

You made no mention of the water pouring into the basin. In fact we were talking about your “no rain” idea so that would be pre basin filling. But let’s discuss this idea. Yes a water fall generates a spray of liquid water. What happens to the spray? Being heaver than air, most falls back into the water. Some with absorb heat (2264 kJ/kg required BTW) and turn to water vapor. This heat will come from the surrounding air cooling it. You have noticed how cool it gets around a water fall and I was raised in a house cooled by evaporation. So now you have a source of cool moist air. But before you get too excited I will point out that Niagara Falls averages 35.4 inch/year of rain and yet the average for the US is 38 inch/year so it doesn’t seem to contribute to increased rainfall in the vicinity. And your source of moisture has to travel almost 4,000 km to your Eden. Plus you have never proposed how this moisture, if it was to get there, is then lifted high enough to generate rain except to say it was caused by “turbulence”. Enough rain to last for 960 hours, because we know God does not lie.

You seem to have a problem with keeping the conversation straight.

Yes, as I tell my wife, everything is my fault. lol. I see connections between facts and issues that need answering. I am not a linear thinker, which may be why I raise so many things.

Bill wrote*> I was reacting to this.*

Bill said: You made no mention of the water pouring into the basin.

Bill, I have pointed out that the basin was filling up in response to your posts. You clearly didn’t take the effort to read them. My responses below speak about the water pouring into the basin humidifying the air, and mentioned it several times, showing maps.

[quote=“gbob, post:8, topic:42578”]
It doesn’t take a genius to understand the adiabatic lapse rate, and the fact that the spray alone from these 200 mph streams of water would quickly humidify the air at the bottom of this desert
[/quote] post 8 replying to you Did Noah's Flood Kill All Humans except his family? - #8 by gbob

In the Is the Bible Inspired thread, I said this replying to you Clearly you didn’t take time to read what I said:
Estimates vary on the speed by which the Atlantic waters shot into the empty basin.

this guy says max was 40m/s. That is 89 mph

**This fellow says the Med went up a few meters per day. filling atthe rate of 90 sv. --that is 90 million cubic meters of water per second. the speed of the water depends on the size of the hole.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0031018215000735

I go into this because one could start the rain by the turbulence started at the Gibraltar strait and have it move eastward, to create the rain. A numerical simulaton of the influx, using a very small opening, which is not deep enough to bring in the ostracod mentioned by Hsu, has the water moving at 100 m/s

that is 200 mph, which would certainly stir up the atmosphere, causing turbulence, at the east, and once a convection cell started, it’s outwash would force further off areas to go down, and after that even further areas it would force air to rise quicker than the average. Is the Bible Inspired? - #60 by gbob

What part of ‘Atlantic waters shot into the empty basin’ did you not understand?
What part of 'filling at the rate of 90Sv–90 million cubic meters of water per second" did you not understand?

Frankly I think you were so dismissive of what I wrote that you didn’t even bother to understand what I was saying. You ignored what I clearly wrote. And then you say I can’t have a straight line conversation. lol

I spoke of waters moving upward in the basin. Where do waters lie when they are in the basin? At the bottom? Is that logical jump so difficult? I expect people to understand that when a thread is about the catastrophic Mediterranean flood that the water will not fill from the top down!

In fact we were talking about your “no rain” idea so that would be pre basin filling.

So you do understand that the basin is filling with water? How on earth could you have missed that? That is unbelievable to me.

> But let’s discuss this idea. Yes a water fall generates a spray of liquid water. What happens to the spray? Being heaver than air, most falls back into the water. Some with absorb heat (2264 kJ/kg required BTW) and turn to water vapor.

Yes, most falls quickly but you seem to be unaware of Stoke’s law, which governs particle size and terminal velocity. When the upward component of air currents is faster than terminal velocity of the tiny particle, it can be carried upward giving it enough time to absorb the heat and humidify the air.

> This heat will come from the surrounding air cooling it. You have noticed how cool it gets around a water fall and I was raised in a house cooled by evaporation. So now you have a source of cool moist air.

Not necessarily cool, it depends on the starting temperature of the air. and how much is evaporated. You seem to miss these little details. But once you grant me this, as the water continues to rise, the most air will get still cooler, and voila, at the dewpoint, the water condenses again and forms rain. So, yes, the logic of what you say above does get me excited, because it is precisely what will cause the rain. I am excited because you are on the verge of understanding the issue.

> But before you get too excited I will point out that Niagara Falls averages 35.4 inch/year of rain and yet the average for the US is 38 inch/year so it doesn’t seem to contribute to increased rainfall in the vicinity.

I didn’t say Niagara contributed to the rain in New York although it does in a tiny insignificant amount. I was trying to get you to understand that the water filling the Med, beneath the hot air would humidify that air rather quickly, and as it rose, it would condense again to form rain.

Niagara at most covers oh, say, 2 sq miles or so. The waters filling the Med were beneath nearly a million sq miles or 2.5 million square miles of hot dry air and within a short time the water would humidify the air. Now, the upward lift to the air provided by the upward filling water, would be sufficient to cause rain.

And your source of moisture has to travel almost 4,000 km to your Eden.

So? why would distance of travel make it harder for humidification to occur with each mile traveled? the rain won’t start until there is sufficient humidity, either blown in from the west in the form of clouds, or from humidification of the eastern area as the waters poured in. Noah wouldn’t have had to get in the ark until the waters were almost upon him. He could have lived happily for several months before the western mediterranean was filled up. the number on this already posted picture show the order of when things were filled. It took some months to fill the west before the east even began to fill. Notice the numbers 0 1 and 2 at the bottom of the eastern Med. The waters didn’t begin to rise until time 2-3 when the Sicily sill was finally topped. That means it spilled over it.

> Plus you have never proposed how this moisture, if it was to get there, is then lifted high enough to generate rain except to say it was caused by “turbulence”. Enough rain to last for 960 hours, because we know God does not lie.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Bill, You seem to have gone out of your way to avoid the fact that every post I have posted was about the catastrophic FLOODING of the Mediterranean. I have pointed out that the entire basin is filling with water and carrying the humid air upward. That was the very first thing you rejected because your son said that wasn’t possible. Your son is wrong. So you can’t say I haven’t offered an explanation other than turbulence. the turbulence could easily humidify enough air and cause enough turbulence around these 200 mpy waterfalls, to generate a self sustaining convection cell. Your complaint in this last part is nullified by the posts I have quoted at the start of this missive. You must be the only person on Biologos that has missed the entire point of this thread

I notice no mention of your plan and criteria for renaming all those rivers throughout geologic history.

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If the liquid water is absorbing heat that means the air is giving up the heat which means the temperature of the air will be lower, i.e. cooler. And cooler air is what? It is denser. And what happens to air that is denser? It falls. I think that is called buoyancy. You need to think about this in terms of the thermodynamics. That is what drives the generation of rain.

But why would it rise? Air rises when it is heated and becomes less dense than the surrounding air or when prevailing winds force air up a mountain slope. The rate at which the surface of the water is rising is not fast enough to impart enough upward velocity to the air to create rain. If you remember I pointed out the upward velocity of air in fair weather cumulus and thunderstorms. They are orders of magnitude higer than the rate the surface of the water is rising.

But in your non-linear thinking you went back to the period of NO RAIN mentioned in Genesis. So to help me out here, how long was it between A&E and the flood?

My son contributed a new micro physics package to one of the models used to forecast weather and developed a new method to forecast severe weather. I think I will take his word over yours.

Did you read what you just wrote? All you have is turbulence and and turbulence is chaotic motion. A convection cell requires an steady updraft of air to initiate rain.

I am reminded of Neil deGrasse Tyson’s quote

What people do in modern history doesn’t say much about what people that lived in pre-history would think. If you were a sheep header in the Neolithic and one day a river suddenly appeared would you just say, “Oh that is the river that used to flow way out over there?” or “Oh look a new river?” And I am pretty sure any name they gave that river would be different from the name used by the people on the other side of the mountain.

Wow. Really?

Humid air rises. Water molecules are lighter than the gases in air. That is 7th grade science class.

Warm air rises. It is less dense than cooler air and therefore “floats” up through the cooler air. That is called buoyancy which should have been part of a general science class in high school.

No a water molecule is heavier than the other gases. It is 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen atoms which would make it heaver than oxygen. It is also heavier than nitrogen, the main component of air. That is simple high school chemistry.

Edit to add correction:
I forgot free oxygen is mainly O2 which makes it heavier than H2O.

What is the molecular weight of H2O? O2? N2? Finish your homework.

It has been quite a while since I did chemistry in HS and was confusing atomic number with molecular weight. You are right. Based on molecular weight water is lighter than N and O. However, this is a gas and the molecules are in constant motion and therefore mix and don’t separate. Which is a good thing for us.

But a parcel of air, what meteorologists use when they model, rises based on a difference in density of the air which is a function of the temperature of the air. Warm air rises and cold air sinks.

Now talk to me about buoyancy again.

(And yes, warm water vapor rises, too.)

Me too. I’m 71. :grin:

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This from the Wikipedia article quoted by gbob.

Note it only mentions air and not water vapor. I could dig out my Metorology 101 text book if you would like the long drawn out technical explaination but I don’t remember which box I packed it in. I read it in self defense so I could have intelligent conversations with my son.

And from the article on rain.

Further questions?

Yes. Why did you bold air and not moist?

Good grief. It mentions

    moist