Given how few humans there were so long ago it would be a mathematical certainty that everyone today would be descended from Adam, That poses no biological problem because there were other ancestors apart from him – the problem arises only if Adam is the sole male ancestor after he lived.
The history found in those chapters is all mythologized. The Flood accounts presume an actual event but aren’t presenting in a historical manner, and the same is true of the Tower of Babel. This shifts in chapter 12 where the emphasis is on the actuality of the events presented.
But nowhere in Genesis is there any intent to present any scientific information; the concept wouldn’t have even registered on their worldview.
It weakly supports that – all it tells us is that there were scattered people who knew of God.
In fact the way the author of the epistle to the Hebrews treats Melchizedek it would appear that he was unique. As far as most of the early church was concerned, Melchizedek was Jesus because his name means “King of Righteousness” and he is called “Prince of Peace” (Salem = Shalom = Peace).
As for “existed”, that’s a seriously troublesome term; God existed regardless of what people may or may not have thought or believed.
I don’t see it supporting the Babel story unless you’re pushing the events of the Tower incident back to at least 10k+ B.C. The Babel account matches the city of Eridu astoundingly well, it;s just a retelling to make a point about humans trying to command God.
As for the first Creation account, it follows the Egyptian version so closely it’s ridiculous to conclude that it wasn’t essentially copied, just with the details tweaked to demolish the meaning of the Egyptian version, i.e. deposing all their gods by making them just the tools or YHWH-Elohim. Or I suppose it’s conceivable that the Egyptians had all the details right exceot for treating created things as gods.
thanks for the Augustine quote, however, Augustine failed to recognise the gross misrepresentation of scripture that modern science has directed at individuals who don’t know any better. If he had, i very much doubt he would have written any of that!
The point is, people are not chased away from Christianity because of the literal reading of 6 x 24 hours days of creation. They are chased away from scripture because they cannot reconcile theology with the influence of secularism!
The really unfortunate thing is that not all individuals leave because of science…actually, in my experience few leave because of that reason. Christianity is not a scientific model, its a philosophical one. Very few of the writers in the Bible gave advice on such matters for very good reason, they taught salvation not science and that is the point.
We are not saved by any mathematical, scientific, literary, or technical knowledge or skill, we are saved by grace through our faith in Christ.
Does this mean that scientific knowledge has no relevance? I accept that the answer to this question is “of course not”, however, if one is leaving religion because of conflicting science, then i am sorry to say, they are leaving because of poor theology not poor science.
Jesus said to those around him on a number of occasions:
Matthew 18:1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. 3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven
Mark 10:13Now people were bringing the little children to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them, and the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and told them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15Truly I tell you, anyone who does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”
Jesus is not interested in sound science, he simply wants us to humble ourselves and to follow him.
Ironically enough, i see the scientific debate in Christianity in the following manner, below is an illustration given by Christ himself…
18Then a certain ruler asked Him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
19“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone. 20You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor your father and mother.’b”
21“All these I have kept from my youth,” he said.
22On hearing this, Jesus told him, “You still lack one thing: Sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”
23But when the ruler heard this, he became very sad, because he was extremely wealthy.
The Rich Young Ruler
Luke 18:24Seeing the man’s sadness,c Jesus said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
If we are to put our worldly possessions (incl worldly knowledge of science) in front of salvation, then how can any of us possibly enter the kingdom?
YECism puts science over the Bible and does not tell the truth about all of God’s reality. Six-day creationism is not a salvation issue and it is a lie to say it is.
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You’re making me angry. I wonder what Jesus would say to you.
For what it’s worth, there’s a rabbinical account listing who was a certain rabbi’s teacher, and who was his teacher, and so on back to Solomon, and for several of those names it’s known that at least several generations were skipped. We know that generation-skipping was common in ANE genealogies, and if the gaps they left were similar to the ones that rabbinic tracing then the lengths of time not mentioned could well be the majority of time from just about any given point one might select in the “begats”.
And it’s possible that when it comes to skills/talents, those listed as sons might be later practitioners known for their skill and not a blood line at all. I wouldn’t be surprised if the genealogies as given are fast and loose with actual heritage until the accounts get to Abraham, at which point they would become a lot more serious since those served to establish Israel’s identity whereas those before him aren’t important for that.
YECism puts philosophy in front of Science…it openly claims (and you can find this all over the internet) “the Bible is our primary source of all authority” and “science must harmonise with the literal reading of the Bible”.
I would be interested in seeing your evidence that supports the claim that YEC puts science over the Bible?
Your statement reminds me of an interview in India of Russian Offical Sergeo Lavrov recently…the crowd response to his claim “Ukraine invaded Russia” suggests the reality is the polar opposite of this official’s false claim…
Why? Much (maybe most, by now) of Proverbs has been discovered in texts that pre-date it. There’s nothing that says that pagans may not have held onto some traditions that were accurate in all but their interpretation.
In fact given Paul’s (and the Psalms/) point about God being known through nature, added to how determinedly ancient societies passed down certain stories accurately, it would be surprising if there weren’t a good deal of truth passed down by pagans that only needed a little “brushing up” to fit in the scriptures.
I know what he’s saying to me right now, though. Since putting six-day joke science above the Bible and the rest of the marvelous cosmic reality that he has created, including life on earth, and making it a salvation issue is evil, this it what he is saying to me:
Fret not yourself because of evildoers.
Psalm 37:1
I’ve addressed this before, but I’ll say it again:
The Bible only appears to make such clear distinctions in English and by ignoring the fact that it was written as ancient literature. Ancient literary types found in Genesis especially mix poetry, myth, history and other types because they had literary types that don’t fit the ones you list, and those partake of two or more of the ‘flavors’ you list simultaneously.
As for the “research above”, to be blunt that book relies on people who are at best not credible.
Wow – I haven’t encountered the “God was learning” trope for… over forty years! Is that silliness still around?
I’ve never encountered any “‘inspiration of God’ dilemma” with theistic evolution before; in fact evolution points strongly to the glory of God. Care to explain?
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All truth being God’s truth. It does seem to be a bit arrogant to think that ancient people and pagans could not have known truth, and of course that goes on today. Just as non-Christians can produce beautiful art and music, and write prose and poetry that expresses truth. I think that if you look at the New Testament, you can see influence from Greek philosophy. That does not make it less true.
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so what i am hearing here is that you are using the writings of a Christian to support the idea that paganism wrote the scriptures?
If you go back and re read my post in response to beaglelady, you will recall that my statement was that Abraham, Melchizadek, and Job likely lived around the same time, however, all three were located hundreds of km apart. There is no chance they had any links with each other prior to their stories in the Bible.
Job - Uz which is east of the Red Sea
Melchizadek - Salem (Israel/Jordan region)
Abram - ur of the Chaldees (Mesopotamia)
What the above means is that Melchizzadek and Job were gentiles…they were not Jewish. There is no way that Abrahams story or any of his subsequent theology was copied from either of the other two and yet they followed the same God he did. Not only did they follow that God, but they held almost identical beliefs to Abraham about things such as Creation, the Fall, and in particular (and this is the most important aspect) the sacrificial system.
All three disconnected inviduals sacrificed to the one true God in Heaven. They sacrificed for the identical reason that Cain and Abel did in Genesis chapter 4!
So the reality is, the Jewish belief did not come from paganism. Given that the bible speaks of paganism and its corruptions of the plan of salvation so early in its history, and given how well the bible remains consistent with the varying writers books regarding the plan of salvation, it is a difficult position to support the claim of plagiarism. There was no internet in those days and the vast distances and time involved between writers of the various books…a discrepency/ or lie would have easily been exposed by now, however this is not the case…as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Isaiah scroll (100B.C) have shown.
The YEC claim was the primary thing that drove students who arrived as Christians away from the faith because it is so obviously false – and they had never been nurtured in the actual faith enough to pass through that trial. Indeed most of the YEC-believing students I knew were far more trained in YECism than in knowing Christ. I like what a Campus Crusade for Christ director said on the matter once: “We’re here to preach Jesus, not to try to prove the Bible – if people get to know Jesus, proving the Bible will take care of itself”.
BTW, that’s one of the wisest things Augustine ever put in writing.
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You have demonstrated the enormity of your theological, biblical and philosophical capabilities quite well.
Isnt this quoting a statement which dissagrees with the premise here? Isnt the following supportive of the philosophical rather than the scientific?
if people get to know Jesus, proving the Bible will take care of itself”.
I again repeat what Christ Himself stated on this topic…
Luke 18: 24Seeing the man’s sadness,c Jesus said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
I believe it is a mistake for us to claim that unless ourscience is agreeable, our faith is lost. Wouldnt this be the opposite of what Christ Himself taught?
Mark 10: “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15Truly I tell you, anyone who does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”
EDIT
I don’t come to this forum seeking salvation…no one will find that here. there is only one place where salvation can be found, the Bible.
This forum is a place for obtaining knowledge and discussing our interests and faith. However, it focuses so heavily on Science that the faith part seems to get enveloped in a scientific cloud (perhaps I’m just being biased here and i mean no disrespect).
Can this forum strengthen or weaken our faith? Of course.
Can this forum bring people to seek God? Absolutely.
What i find really interesting is that when the prophet Elijah was in the cave, and the Lord told him to come out to the entrance, Elijah did not find God in the thunder, the wind, or the earthquake, instead it was a still small voice saying “what are you doing here Elijah!”
That is not what he said. Again you are showing your inability to read well.
What you are saying is that unless science agrees with your belief, your salvation is lost. That is an evil distortion of the truth.
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I think when one reads a little more deeply into the various posts made by individuals here, its very clear that from the perspective of Science YECism is bad (and that comes from reading between the lines on the statement “YECism was the primary thing that drove students”…).
If we dig into what YECs believe:
- that the world was created in Six days by an almighty creator who is eternal and omnipotent
- Sin came into this world, corrupted it by tricking humanity into disobedience, and death is a result of Sin
- God, humbled Himself and lived amongst us, died a physical death at the hand of His own creation in order to pay the price for sin
- “This same Jesus will return in the manner in which you have seen him go up into heaven” and those who are alive and who believe on Him will meet together with those who are dead in the air and return to Heaven with Him
- And a new heavens and a new earth will be made for the former things have passed away
Are you able to find anything in the above that Christians should take issue with and that may detract from their faith?
Is there anything in the fundamentals of YECism that disagrees with the statements Jesus made "suffer the little children to come unto me…"unless one has the faith of a child, he cannot inherit the kingdom of God?
Which is why YECism drives people to abandond their faith, since they were taught that if there are any "errors’ In Genesis then the whole Bible is wrong.
They’re just following what their church(es) taught them.
No, they’re chased away from scripture because that’s what their churches taught them: if there’s an “error” in Genesis, even one, then the whole Bible is false.
That’s not even Christianity any more, so in a way they’re not leaving the faith because their churches never taught them the faith! It’s the same (literally) damned (in the theological sense) error the Roman Catholic church made when they forced scripture to fit another human philosophy, Aristotelianism. All that YECism is, is forcing the Bible to fit scientific materialism.
Christ is the center of faith, not anyone’s interpretation of Genesis, yet I have seen over and over and over preachers pounding the pulpit insisting that if Genesis isn’t scientifically correct then the Bible is false. Those preachers are not Christian by any stretch of the word.
But their preachers proclaim that the Bible has to be scientifically true or it isn’t true at all. So when students merely taking the required low-level science courses for whatever major they chose, they find that there are in fact “errors” in Genesis, and so they follow what their preachers taught them and abandon the faith.
Yes. The more I study, the more I recognize that YECism is inherently antiChrist because it has a different theological center and thus a different Gospel.
Every church junior high group should be taught that quote from Augustine, along with a point from an Orthodox priest I knew: if you aren’t talking about Jesus, you’re not doing theology.