Did bones actually become fossilized in the sediments of "ancient" epeiric (inland) seas on continents?

[T_aquaticus]

@donpartain

The sand (to become sandstone) is beach environment. The clay (to become shale) is shallow marine. The calcium carbonate (to become limestone) is from deeper ocean waters. So, again, the sediments lie adjacent to each other before being transported onto and across certain extents of the continents by strong ocean flows.

We can see sandstones, shales, and limestone being deposited right now, and it isn’t due to an ocean rampaging its way across a continent. Just go to the bottom of any local lake and you will find the beginnings of shale.

[beaglelady]

@T_aquaticus

They qualify as fossils because they are representative of a living organism.

A fossil is any trace of ancient life. Even a track way

[Bill_II]

@donpartain

Yes, that’s actually the point of “suddenly, completely, and deeply”–to seal out oxygen as much as possible.

The point is it doesn’t require being covered to be in a low oxygen environment. Anoxic water occurs in “sea water, fresh water, and ground water.” There is no need “to seal out oxygen” because there is no oxygen to begin with.

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

You can also have peat bogs, tar pits, and the like. Local flash floods can often sweep large animals away and bury them quickly, much like the mammoths at Waco Mammoth National Monument. History & Culture - Waco Mammoth National Monument (U.S. National Park Service)

[Kendel]

@donpartain

how many educational and government institutions had articles

Citations, please.

[Kendel]

@donpartain

One source said, “at least 10,000 years old.”

Again, citation please.

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

@donpartain

The sand (to become sandstone) is beach environment. The clay (to become shale) is shallow marine. The calcium carbonate (to become limestone) is from deeper ocean waters. So, again, the sediments lie adjacent to each other before being transported onto and across certain extents of the continents by strong ocean flows.

Interestingly, sandstone can develop in deeper ocean areas due to underwater slides and shifts from delta areas. One can see how that would kill and bury sea creatures as well. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1876380413600385

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

So why the italics?

[Paraleptopecten (Timothy Campbell)]

@donpartain

They do not go through permineralization to fossilize, as bones do.

However, they do experience other chemical changes–organic molecules in them (structural and pigment proteins, e.g.) decay, and eventually (highly conditions-dependent, between 100,000 and 450,000,000 years) aragonite (standard in mollusks, but not crinoids) will turn into calcite (and into dust at the same time). Aragonite can also be replaced by other minerals-like in the Tampa Silex Beds (replaced very slowly with quartz–the microstructure is preserved).

@donpartain

So, again, the sediments lie adjacent to each other before being transported onto and across certain extents of the continents by strong ocean flows.

Or before staying exactly where they were deposited–many marine deposits show evidence of no transport–like wide ranges of particle size, preservation of articulated bivalves, or very fragile shells.

@donpartain

Actually, some define fossil also in terms of its age. One source said, “at least 10,000 years old.”

Yes, that is a fairly typical definition for things that have no (rapid) chemical change, like mollusk shells.

[donpartain]

Yes, they’re called “trace fossils.”

[donpartain]

Sorry. What are you referring to? I don’t remember putting anything into italics.

[donpartain]

But do you have any source that says fossilized bones have been found within this sandstone?

[donpartain]

Sorry. I read many articles without filing them. I just remember reading this figure. But I’ll see if I can find it.

[donpartain]

Do you find the distinct groupings of sedimentary rock layers–bounded by unconformities–being formed today…with “fining up” of sediments in one sequence (for transgressive ocean flow) and “coarsening up” in another (for regressive ocean flow)?

[Laura]

@beaglelady

A fossil is any trace of ancient life. Even a track way

…which would have been completely washed away if the fossil record had been laid down by a violent flood.

[donpartain]

What is a fossil?

How are fossils formed?
“There are four main steps to making a fossil (see image below):
First, an organism dies. Anaerobic conditions exclude bacteria and other predators that consume bodies before burial, so organisms that die in the deepest ocean or in a deep lake are more likely to become fossils.”

https://www.geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/G204/lectures/204fossils.html

“Very quiet water (like the bottom of lakes, lagoons, etc.) is very good for preserving fine details (especially of small-bodied organisms), but only if that bottom environment is not populated by worms, clams, and other sediment-churning animals: for example, if the bottom-water is anoxic.”

[donpartain]

Yet bones are completely consumed, ultimately by bacteria, in (at least) sea water.

[donpartain]

But isn’t it interesting that a “flash flood” also wiped out a herd of 10,000 (8 to 11-ton) maiasaurs in Montana…and a “flash flood” also (at about the same time) wiped out another herd of massive dinosaurs (Centrosaurus) in Alberta, Canada…and a “flash flood” also (at about the same time) wiped out a herd of other dino’s in China…and other places around the world, at about the same time.

In fact, paleontologist Jack Horner (of Jurassic Park fame) said it was “catastrophic flooding” that wiped out the maiasaur herd he had discovered–though, of course, he wouldn’t attribute it to the biblical flood.

But it would certainly fit the biblical Flood model.

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

@donpartain

But it would certainly fit the biblical Flood model.

Only if “about the same time” was within a 40 day period, rather than millions of years. And if you would find large mammals and modern animals mixed with those fossils. Otherwise, it just means flash floods are not uncommon, just as we see today, and since they create the conditions necessary for fossilization, fossils are pretty much going to be found in area of flash flooding and rapid burial.

As to fossils found in deep sea sandstone, we burn a lot of them in our cars, as they form fossil fuels. Sandstone sedimentology and stratigraphy - AAPG Wiki

[Kendel]

Thanks for the article. Clearly an introductory, non-technical piece for students not very familiar with fossils, and a very broad overview.

@donpartain

But it concerned me how many educational and government institutions had articles that simply spoke of bones drifting down and somehow burying themselves in sea sediments…and so, becoming fossils.

I probably missed this in the article, but since I can understand most of it, it’s clearly aimed at intro level students and covers a great variety of fossils. I wouldn’t expect high levels of technical detail in a source like this.