Did bones actually become fossilized in the sediments of "ancient" epeiric (inland) seas on continents?

But they are not like tsunami pulses nor waves of strong flows. They are, instead, just like layers gradually deposited over long periods of time. You keep claiming that they layers fit some sort of flood model without ever dealing with the geological reality.

As sea level slowly rises over an eroded landscape, higher and higher rocks are getting hit by waves. Sand erodes off the land, down the rivers and into the ocean; it’s also produced by breakdown of rocks on the shore. The gradual buildup of sand (with the occasional larger rock if rock was handy), followed by clay-mineral mud and then carbonates is what a gradual transgression of sea level over millions of years should produce. Boulders can be eroded loose by stronger waves from storms, or just the accumulated effect of gradual erosion along a rocky shore. In contrast, a tsunami will produce a distinctive pattern of highly jumbled pieces. The lightest-weight pieces will be carried the farthest inland. But in the Sauk transgression, the sand comes first with the finer clays behind, as produced by slow changes in sea level. The layers are not jumbled, and they show long-term changes in the types of fossils, in various isotopes, and other markers of the passing of a lot of time. The rocks directly on top of the Sauk unconformity are not all the same age, which they would have to be if they were produced by a global flood.

CMI and ICR claims that the Sauk transgression fits better with a global flood that with conventional geology are unsubstantiated and untrue. You need to research the primary sources rather than repeating their vague claims. In fact, both a tsunami model and a rain model for a global flood require enough heat to melt the earth, so the rock record clearly contradicts current flood geology models. If you also claim that a significant portion of the geologic record was produced during the Flood, you’re speeding up plate motion from centimeters per year to over 70 km per hour, which would vaporize the earth rather than just melting it. As Genesis does not record Noah being cooked, incinerated, or vaporized, global flood models are not a good match for either the biblical data or the geologic data.

“So…who says some sedimentary layers were deposited “during, before, and after”? They were ALL deposited by the Flood. Who has said otherwise?”

You did, for one. If the base of the Sauk transgression was the start of the Flood, then all the sedimentary layers under that had to be deposited before the flood. If buried, partially disarticulated ichthyosaur skeletons had started to disarticulate before the flood and then got buried, then all the sedimentary layers under the ichthyosaur skeletons had to be deposited before the flood.

Various young-earth sources claim that various sedimentary deposits were deposited before or after the flood. For example, many suggest a brief glacial interval after the Flood as a way to account for Pleistocene glacial deposits. (That doesn’t actually work to explain the dozens of advances and retreats of the glaciers across thousands of miles during the Pleistocene, not to mention all the older glacial deposits, but it admits that the deposits exist and came from glaciers.) Glaciers make sedimentary layers. Kurt Wise admitted that hardground deposits (such as reefs) could not form during the young-earth flood, which means that fossil reefs must be either pre-flood or post-flood.

Lake and river deposits are some other sedimentary deposits that can’t form during the young-earth flood.

The Bible indicates that most sedimentary deposits are pre-flood, as it locates Eden with regard to the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which are on top of extensive sedimentary deposits.

Again, this demonstrates that you do not have a coherent model but are just saying “the flood did it” without checking for consistency with yourself, with other young-earth claims, or with the evidence. You need to take seriously the task of building a solid, coherent model rather than simply repeating the same bad arguments, if you hope to make a credible case.

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Dialectically it’s the other way round.

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So, how do you account for the Colorado River’s cutting through the Kaibib Plateau, which was a few thousand feet higher in elevation than the river. Four or five hypotheses have been set forth for how this might have happened. But obviously, before the river could cut down through the Canyon, it had to somehow get over or through this Plateau.

“You used the words “earlier (paleozoic) marine transgressions”, on the contrary though, these mountains are of the very layers that you’re suggesting were deposited during the transgressions.”

Yes, of course. Mountain ranges, like the Rocky Mountains and the Appalachians, were loaded with paleozoic deposits (such as, by the Sauk and Tippecanoe transgressions)–before they became mountains. Then, these sediment layers were uplifted with them.

They are all paleozoic layers–deposited in succession by the Sauk, Tippecanoe, Kaskakia, and possibly some by the Absaroka transgressions/regressions.

That was covered above, fairly early on. Here it is again:

This refutes the YEC argument about the Kaibab uplift and the Grand Canyon in 11 seconds:

You don’t seem to understand that the sedimentary layers were not all deposited by a single marine incursion. As I stated earlier, there were at least three major marine incursions–transgressions followed by regressions–that deposited paleozoic layers.

And these incursions were in succession. The Sauk, though, evidences having covered the greatest extent of these, covering 75% of North America. And so, these marine flows deposited sediment layers over several mountain range areas before they were uplifted.

The same is true of all the layers of the Grand Canyon–all 9,000 feet of them, before uplift. Nearly all are Paleozoic–deposited in succession by the Sauk, Tippecanoe, and Kaskakia.

You mean “thousands of feet of” mostly sedimentary rock layers, don’t you? Very little bedrock (basement granite) was eroded by these waters.

Once again, though, you only need vast periods of time because you believe it was the Colorado River that carved the Canyon. I don’t buy this. It has done some eroding, but I believe it was this was the work of Flood waters as they drained off the continents.

When the Kaibib was uplifted, faults broke open all the way up to the surface (just as one linked study points out)–Flood waters then used such deep cracks to help carve the Canyon…and in the process “pirated” the Colorado River to run the course of its deep gouge.

In fact, Google Earth the entire Colorado Plateau and scan the landscape. Hardly the work of mere wind erosion. In fact, compare it with the Scablands, which all geologists agree was carved out by massive flooding waters. It even has its own river canyon–carved not by the river, but by flooding waters.

"But they are not like tsunami pulses nor waves of strong flows. They are, instead, just like layers gradually deposited over long periods of time. "

Why do you believe the sequences demand “long periods of time”?

In fact, the slowly, slowly, slowly formation and deposition of sediments you speak of, over millions of years, would not form the discrete “packages” of sedimentary rock layers (bounded above and below by unconformities) that form sequences and megasequences, that very real geological data show.

Unconformities are erosion zones–how are distinct sedimentary rock layers and their erosion zones produced under water when the sediments are in nothing more than an “ooze” form?

Check out the Caspian and Black Seas–ancient inland seas we observe today. Are there any discrete packages of sedimentary rock layers, bounded above and below by unconformities, even in the process of being formed at the bottom of these seas? Of course not. Their sediments are nothing more than ooze.

No, no. I didn’t say, “before the flood.” I said, there were dinosaurs that show evidence of having been killed but not yet buried by an earlier wave of the Flood; they then decomposed, or were scavenged. Then, a later, larger flooding of ocean sediment completely buried them. But these were all “waves” or “incursions” of the very same Flood, as the waters rose more and more.

I think you think the Flood model advocates just one big burst of water–then it’s over! But not true at all. The whole geologic column traces the progressive rise of ocean levels, flooding more and more of the earth (through five megasequences); then, the final megasequence (the Tejas) records massive drainoff the continents (forming such phenomena as the “Whopper Sands” of the Gulf of Mexico)–just as the biblical Flood model would predict.

But YEC’rs don’t deny uplift–nor deny subduction as the cause of it.

In fact, Old-earth’rs are having to scramble a bit to try to figure out how the Colorado River managed to climb over the uplifted Kaibib Plateau (several thousand feet higher than the river) in order to erode it.

But Flood waters draining over and down through an uplifted (and faulted) Kaibib Plateau, then down through the Grand Canyon (thus, creating a path for the Colorado River) would make sense.

No, the earth was not cursed until after sin was committed (Genesis 3:17).

By not recognizing that Genesis 1 and 2 were written with two different purposes in mind, you have made them contradict. That is the same error people make when they try to make the gospels contradict each other (as each was written from a slightly different standpoint).

It takes time.

So what is the timeframe for this in 2348 BCE? During the reign of Djedkare Isesi?

So, which week in the late summer - early autumn of 2348 BCE? What days of the week? Did these six events take place? Or was it all in one day?

Science isn’t selling. It’s telling. Honestly, completely, truthfully, openly, thoroughly, consiliently, testably, repeatably, inclusively, logically, robustly, faithfully, impartially, Biblically; it uses the spirit of a sound mind and above all true weights and measures.

Where is that here? Or in any of these?

Science explains all of this infinitely more rationally (and all the rest, see above) than a Jewish creation myth. Why do you need to believe the latter?

So, how much heat did the subduction generate in 5 months?

What are those cultural purposes? No one here is interested in literal Biblical contradictions, they are irrelevant to the greatest discourse. (That being the proposition of God in Christ.)

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Alright, I’m just going to move on.

Don, from your posts we’ve seen blatantly false claims (such as your cenozoic post). We’ve seen no effort to learn the subject prior to making those false claims. We’ve seen comments suggesting a lack of a baseline understanding of the subject (bedrock is not equivalent to basement rock, among several other comments you’ve made), and we see claims written in a manner implying that the author believes that he understands the subject better than we/scientists do despite some being very clearly incorrect.

On my end, I don’t find it worthwhile continuing to repeat myself. The details above make it practically impossible to have a meaningful conversation.

Otherwise best of luck in your investigation.

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About those.

If catastrophically buried by tsunami, why would most of these whales be found oriented belly up? A tsunami with the power to override mountain ranges and roll over continents would disperse entrained animals, not bury them so they are within a few meters of each other or in direct contact.

Bigger question, why are there no modern species found? If this happened just 4500 years ago, contemporary with ancient history, why are all the fossil whale species extinct?

Repeated mass strandings of Miocene marine mammals from Atacama Region of Chile point to sudden death at sea

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Nonsense. Watch the 11 second video clip.

 
ETA: …and get hold of a copy of this, a beautiful book, of the eleven contributing authors nine are evangelical* Christians (and at least one contributes here – hey @Joel_Duff ; - )…

 
(It’s not available digitally, I expect partly because of the gorgeous photography which cannot be appreciated on a small screen… but my public library bought one at my request.)
 


*A qualifier many are reluctant to claim anymore, and with good reason.

Lather, rinse, repeat… and repeat and repeat and repeat…

To not waste any more shampoo maybe this could be closed down, @moderators?

I’m in the process of listening to a sermon that mentions Ezekiel 34, talking about religious leaders who cloak themselves in the words of God as shepherds but are false. That also resonates as religious leaders who cloak themselves in the words of science not understanding it, fooling themselves and thinking they are being faithful shepherds. Oh yeah, and exploiting their followers for personal gain… do any YEC ‘ministries’ come to mind? “‘Shepherds’ in title but thieves and robbers at heart.”

I second this. This discussion consists of nearly six hundred posts of the same argument being made over and over and over again, and the same refutations being posted in response and then not addressed.

@donpartain If you want to challenge a scientific theory, you need to account for all the evidence and not just a cherry-picked subset of it. And if someone is telling you that you aren’t getting your facts straight, you need to bring something new to the table to address the reasons why they tell you that you aren’t getting your facts straight. Just repeating the same old thing over and over again isn’t going to cut it.

One does not simply “discover” evidence. The evidence has to exist in reality and not just on paper. It has to be of satisfactory quality. And it has to go beyond supporting whatever you are claiming that it supports, and to actively contradict the alternatives.

The problem, Don, is that not only do we not have any evidence for a young earth, and not only do we not have any evidence that the Flood extended beyond the Middle East, we have mountains (literally) of evidence that actively contradicts such a scenario. This has been more than adequately explained to you over and over again throughout this thread and I see no need to rehash the reasoning. This being the case, you are demanding that we “discover” something that quite clearly does not exist. Such a demand is tantamount to demanding that we be prepared to preach falsehood and scientific misinformation if your doctrine demands it. Furthermore, to equate a rejection of falsehood and misinformation with a rejection of Christ is almost blasphemous.

As Christians, we need to be honest about this. However important you think a young earth and a global Flood may be doctrinally, the Bible has far, far, far, far more to say about the need for honesty and factual accuracy than about the age of the earth or evolution. And as for your accusations of “mocking” and “scoffing” — I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: it’s one thing to be mocked or scoffed at for preaching the Gospel. It is a completely different matter to complain about being “mocked” or “scoffed at” for preaching falsehood and scientific misinformation.

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