Did bones actually become fossilized in the sediments of "ancient" epeiric (inland) seas on continents?

I can understand the unscienced, the unlearned masses having folk religion, even strongly, although the majority won’t, apart from the fallacy of incredulity whenever they look up at the Milky Way; ‘Of course there’s a God/Allah/Great Spirit’. Then I remember my own story of fundamentalism. I was terrified in to it mid-teens. A terror aching in the basement right now.

What happened to you @donpartain?

1 Like

“To be fair, I don’t think we find any oxbow lakes or 180 degree Paleozoic meanders at the channeled scablands, but we do find them around the grand canyon. The video touches a bit on this toward the end.”

I think you meant this to be an argument against the global Flood’s carving the Grand Canyon?

Yet, meandering canyons would result from receding Flood waters, cutting through soft sediments.

Great discussion here, Adrian, about the relationship of “subdue” to “rule.” And, yes, I was actually discussing radah (rule) rather than kabash (subdue)–though, I was seeing them as being used more or less interchangeably.

But I think you are right that they “go hand in hand.” Thanks for pointing this out!

But I still see “subduing” the earth and life upon it as less militaristic, maybe, than you do. I believe the Lord is simply saying that we humans are charged with learning to bring the rest of creation under our control (“subdue”), so that we might more effectively manage (“rule”) it. Not only for our own sake, but also the sake of the rest of creation–so that we might be faithful stewards of creation.

For example, with the wild fish…if we notice a certain species is dying in large numbers, in a certain location, we might have to catch some (“subdue”) to try to discover whatever it is that’s killing them, and so protect (rule) them.

Where I live, wild animals like grizzly bears, wolves, etc. are often trapped (“subdued”) in order to be tagged, so they can be monitored more closely (“ruled”)–both for their own safety and for the safety of the public.

Sorry to hear you have been traumatized, Klax.

Actually, (through no doing of my own!) I was brought up in a very balanced, spiritual and loving family.

1 Like

Then what do you make of structural deformation of Paleozoic layers that predate later mesozoic and Cenozoic deposition?

Hint: Remember that only superposition is necessary to determine an order of events. When you have deformation of deep layers, overlain by layers that are undeformed, then you can conclude logically that deformation of the underlying layers, predates deposition of the overlying layers. Else the overlying layers would be deformed as well.

You can’t really have structural deformation in soft layers anyway. Things like slickenlines for example, or brecciated fault gouge. Such features, by their nature, necessitate the presence of dense rock. Same with things like low angle thrust faults of the laramide orogeny. In which case, the presence of such features, forming as a product of the laramide orogeny, predating erosion from the overlying stream, mandates a situation in which the stream must erode through dense rock.

So, to propose that some water running off the land, was flowing slow enough to produce meanders, and that the layers were all soft sediment washed away in some brief period of time, doesn’t align with the observed evidence, and add up with basic physics.

1 Like

How about a break from this thread and making a visit here (especially since it was at your instigation ; - ).

Bless your heart, Dale–you are determined. But save it for another thread, o.k.?

Actually, most of this thread, already, has taken a “break” from the OP.

So, can you find any scientific example of marine bones fossilizing–becoming permineralized (as most fossils are)–at the bottom of true ancient inland seas, like the Caspian Sea, Black Sea, or Hudson Bay?

Again, evolutionary doctrine teaches that marine bones became fossilized by drifting down into the sediments of supposed ancient inland seas. I am challenging this doctrine, since it lacks empirical support; it violates what we know about fossilization processes.

Can you address this, Dale?

You can’t get 2,000 feet of crinoid plates from a single catastrophic event. Catastrophic floods don’t produce life. You need a stationary sea to get that many crinoids stacked up.

3 Likes

Finding one geologic feature that formed quickly does not refute the conclusion that others formed slowly.

So the Earth is flat?

Indeed, when will YEC flood geologists learn these lessons and see the differences between the two formations?

2 Likes

Um, what do you think I’m talking about. Precisely that, another thread.
 

Not any better than the several professional scientists and well-informed and astute laypeople that have tried to educate you and point out your misunderstandings. You preoccupation is almost idolatrous?

1 Like

Fossilized by drifting down into the sediments?! That is a novel way of misstating reality. I don’t believe anyone else here has said anything similar.

You really do need a break. Go look at the other thread.

I’m glad Don. That pivot was 56 years ago. All part of the process. Life eh? So you inherited your belief system?

Yes, I should have noticed that.

1 Like

“Preoccupation”? Dale, the evolutionary interpretation of the fossil record hinges on this question, so it deserves special attention and discussion, doesn’t it?

In fact, if you look at most replies in this thread, with the OP in mind, you will see that most of them do not address it, but instead get into side issues (as you insisted on doing, by wanting to debate the age of the earth).

So, upon what scientific basis do you believe bones of marine animals became permineralized in ancient inland seas? Are you able to articulate your own convictions on this–with scientific evidence supporting it? No more dodging, o.k.?

And I hope you have a constructive exchange in the thread you’ve started.

It seems that you have a serious problem with the interpretation of the geologic record based on geology which has nothing to do with evolution. Early geologists had already concluded that the Earth was quite old and that there was no recent global flood, and this was well before Darwin and Wallace proposed the theory of evolution.

1 Like

I think you underestimate the magnitude of the biblical Flood–where transgressing & regressing ocean waters left one-to-two-miles-thick sedimentary rock layers on every continent.

Certainly, “catastrophic floods don’t produce life”! Instead, massive catastrophic flood sediment flows broke shells and plates into fragments while packing them tightly together in a calcium carbonate medium, which diagenesis turned into limestone.

You need a stationary sea to get that many crinoids stacked up

Who says? When have you observed the assemblage of such a layer of sediment–to be able to judge what will work and what will not work, in causing it to happen?

Think about the Tonto Group of rock layers in the Grand Canyon. The Tapeats Sandstone is 290’ thick…the overlying Bright Angel Shale is 375’ thick…and the overlying this, Muav Limestone is 650’ thick. A total of about 1315’ of sedimentary rock layers.

And ALL of these were deposited by a single oceanic wave of the Sauk transgression. Yeah, seems impossible to us, because we simply have not experienced (nor do we want to!) flooding of that magnitude. But it did happen!

You say, “You can’t get 2,000 feet of crinoid plates from a single catastrophic event.
So, please explain the process that you envision, to account for this layer of limestone with all these crinoids.

Hahaha! Yeah, maybe I do need a break!

So, you believe I am misrepresenting the mainstream explanation for how marine animal bones were permineralized?

O.k., so can you tell me how they actually account for such fossils?

While not addressed specifically to me, it is interesting to speculate. The dead animal would have to be covered by sediment fairly quickly, where soft tissue would be broken down, and the bones remain to have their chemical structure replaced by minerals. While this would seldom happen on nice day at the beach, as evidenced by the rarity of fossils, it often would happen when flood came down rivers, and when hurricanes and lesser storms blew in, when tsunami hit as you suggest, and with volcanic eruptions etc. I suspect if we went around the Florida coast, you would find areas that were shallow lagoons now filled with mud and muck in addition to mudslides eroded beaches and waterfront, with those deposits winding up elsewhere. Who knows, in 10,000 to a million years or so, somebody might be digging up Fido and Flipper’s bones next to the remains of iPhone and trying to make sense of it. How Do Fossils Form | How Fossils Form | Live Science

5 Likes

Thanks, Klax.

But, no, I didn’t simply inherit my belief system.

Although my father was (and still is, at age 96!) a minister–more specifically, a missionary–he always taught my siblings and me to study and think for ourselves–to come to our own convictions about spiritual matters, in keeping with the biblical principle found in 1 Thessonians 5:21,22–“But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil.”

But I like your word, “process.” Life is certainly that. And I think the best we can do, with the help of God, is keep that process moving forward in the right direction.

3 Likes

As with is so very common with YEC argumentation, they find a detail about something that science has not resolved exhaustively and say “This is my favorite whataboutism for the moment.”
 

 

Now, about that other thread that I started at your prompting…. (I added “Awe and wonder” as a tag because it is such an unusual and delightful piece of evidence for the antiquity of the earth. ; - )