Dear Shawn . I see that you use Origen’s saying quite a bit(although i dont know if i can trust what you sent). You seem to put Origen above all the other church fathers . The only thing i know about Origen and most people know is his remarkable work on apologetics. Havent heard before a commentary made by him only a book about preexisting souls that was deemed heretical amongst the church fathers(although me not knowing would be my lack of history so yeah)
And sawn do you consider yourself Arian? Because by your saying i think you are an Arian. No hate dont get me wrong. I love you as i love any other human beign. 
I call myself either a philanthropist (lover of humanity) or a spiritual Christian, of which Origen and Arius were also. I use Origen often because he is known by history as one of the most significant church fathers, yet he is a heretic. This dichotomy always intrigued me, because he contributed so much, they could not disown him. Even after they destroyed the majority of his works.
1 Like
My reading of church history is that the doctrine of the Trinity did not appear until the fourth century, and not everyone accepted it.
It certainly is more specific than what can be found in scripture.
1 Like
The Word pre-incarnated in OT times as the “Angel of YHWH” (Jude 1:5, 1 Cor 10:4)
That Angel carried the Name of YHWH in him (Ex 23:21)
And God gave the Son His Name (John 17:11-12)
So, one is correct to call the Word / Angelic Messenger of God by all of God’s majestic Names & titles, as the NT does (e.g. First & Last of YHWH in Isaiah applied to Christ in Rev)
But carrying the Name of God does not make one God Himself
The Father is not the Son, they are distinct Persons – the Son is an extension of the divine essence of the Father, from heaven, into creation including earth… which extension of essential nature does become embodied & Personified into a distinct entity, the Word of God…
but neither the Word nor Spirit of God become embodied Persons identical with the Father, they do not become God the Father-like Persons / entities
The Father remains remote in heaven and no one has ever seen Him directly (John 1:18), even though He sent His Son (John 3:16 = Parable of Wicked Tenants) to earth to reveal Himself thereby
Maybe you could picture this like a distant star (The God The Father) and its stellar wind (The Son) which emanates from the star and extends outwards into all creation including earth, where it makes us aware of the distant star…
or maybe a star and its starlight which reaches from heaven to earth
intimately related, both heavenly, yet we distinguish the star from its radiations (stellar wind & starlight = Word & Spirit, say)
God revealed himself in many ways to many people in scripture. A lot of it is semantics in my opinion.
The most common is God revealed himself as
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Is the Holy Spirit scripturally a intelligent independent being? Was Jesus the same as the Jesus we know today prior to creation? Before God even made the universe was there already this Jewish looking male? Was he an adult that then got turned into a baby and born and grew up?
Or was Jesus the word. After all it says the word became flesh. Is the Holy Spirit the word also? I don’t use the term trinity because it’s muddied with various terminology and concepts that various church to church and age to age. It said the spirit of the lord did this and that in scripture.
God also revealed himself as a burning bush and repeatedly as the angel of the lord.
I believe there is one true God of gods. That god has revealed himself in many ways from some being walking with Adam, to a burning bush, to a tornado of clouds and fire, to the spirit that guides and inspired the prophets to write scripture, to the power that created the universe, to the word that became flesh as Son of God, to the spirit that convicts humanity and ect…
I let scripture define and try to avoid words with various connotations that change.
Merry Christmas, Erik.
Genesis 15:1 (NIV2011)
1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward.”
Genesis 15:4 (NIV2011)
4 Then the word of the LORD came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.”
In the OT the Word of God is the word of the LORD YHWH. All angels are angels of YHWH. YHWH, God the Father, revealed Godself to the Jews through God’s Word, primarily the Covenants which God made with Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and David.
God the Father is not remote in heaven. God the Father is everywhere and the Father is our partner through the Covenant in the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ , and the Holy Spirit.
Just as humans created in the image of God are three–body, mind, and spirit, and one person, so God is Three–Fathe/Creatorr, Son/Logos, and Spirit//Love and One God.
1 Like
No human has ever seen the Father (John 1:18) and they would be vaporized if they did (Exodus 33:20)
The Father remains remote, “transcendent”, in the 3rd heaven
What we experience, “immanent”, on earth is His Son, His Word (which many Church fathers like Justin Martyr interpreted as His Angel, which appeared to Abraham at the destruction of Sodom & Gemorrah [Gen 18] and again at the sacrifice of Isaac [Gen 22])
God sent His Son (John 3:16 = Parable of the Wicked Tenants), but did not come directly Himself
The Power of the Father is experienced throughout creation, yes, that is true
That emanated Power is His Word & His Spirit, which are “His two hands” (Saint Irenaeaus) with which He reaches, from remote transcendent 3rd heavenly eternity, down into our lower creation
But no one has ever seen the Father Himself directly (John 1:18 = Exodus 33:20)
The sunlight we see, which reaches earth, is not actually the exact same thing as the Sun which generates & emanates that light – although the sunlight received on earth reveals the Sun far off in heaven (John 1:18 = Matt 11:27)
What about “The” Angel of YHWH? Didn’t Abraham worship the Angel when it appeared to him at the destruction of Sodom & Gemorrah (Gen 18) and didn’t Moses worship it in the burning bush (Ex 3) and didn’t Joshua worship it on the holy ground (Josh 5) ?
Early Church fathers like Justin Martyr interpreted the Angel of YHWH as (transient) pre-manifestations of the Word of God (Jude 1:5, 1 Cor 10:4)
The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible but the notion of the Trinity is in the Bible.
2 Likes
Pseudepigrapha such as the Ascension of Isaiah is not the Bible.
Is the doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible?
Nope! Not at all.
It is one of the things I love about it.
Here is a doctrine which practically defines Christianity and it is not in the Bible.
I love it!
The Bible is not the limit of truth.
2 Likes
John 14:9 (NIV2011)
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
1 Like
Indeed. God is revealed as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit in the Bible. And the word Theotokos is not found in the Bible, but Mary is gives birth to God the Son.
1 Like
Scripture negates Scripture?
Gospel of John 14:9 disproves Gospel of John 1:18 ?
The Pharisees charged Jesus with claiming to be God
He publicly corrected them, claiming only to be the “Son of God” (not “God the Son”) in John 10:33
They mean the same thing in this context.
1 Like
Then you would be willing to use Jesus Christ’s own preferred term, “Son of God” ?
Why does it matter? Should I use his language (Aramaic)?
Edit: Actually, Jesus most often referred to himself as “the son of man.”
1 Like
Well, Yeshua spoke Mishnaic Hebrew (which did borrow a few words here & there from neighboring Aramaic)
But, you would agree, that the original inspired languages are more accurate than modern English translations?
Don’t you (say) prefer the Hebrew Masoretic OT over the Greek LXX for that very reason?
Shouldn’t we always be mindful of the original inspired languages, and try to stay as close to those as possible?
To be faithful to Christ, and his words, we need to stay as close to those original inspired “Aramaic” (Mishnaic Hebrew) words as possible?
Us learning Hebrew would be more reasonable of a request then trying to make Christ learn modern English?