But you didn’t just say TRAINED CLERGY, you said, AVAILABLE TRAINED CLERGY—you sound pretty enthusiastic to me! Like the salesman who will do everything possible to embellish his product for sale, you seem very passionate to sell your product—demonic possession. Plus, it does look like you are aggressively arguing for that position on this very thread. Moreover, since I have been here I have seen you display a strong defense for other dogmatic principles and practices upheld by the Roman Catholic Church—which Protestantism has long abandoned. So, all indicators do point to your defense of the dogmatic principles and practices of the Roman Catholic Church. Although, I do understand that the early church fathers are an important anchor for your convictions of Church doctrine (even if you are of the protestant persuasion). Just the same, for clarity, are you sure you’re not Roman Catholic? But even if you’re not, I would say that typically all of Christendom holds to the same position on demonic possession (as it does on other critical issues which require rethinking)—what the mother church teaches is passed along to the daughter churches.
P.S. In a past comment I have already explained that I was born and baptized in the Roman Catholic tradition, studied with the Jehovah’s Witnesses some thirty years ago (for two years), and then returned to what I was before—a non practicing Roman Catholic. Latter I was married in the local parish Church where my children were also baptized. So, my aim here is not to insult you as a person, whether or not you are Roman Catholic, or to insult you if you are of the protestant persuasion and simply defending the RC’s dogmatic principles and practices since they are also upheld by Protestantism—I only have issue with the teachings themselves.
Considering all the comments in this thread I think it has been unanimously accepted (unless I have misunderstood something) that demonic possession is not a causal factor in neurological disease [epilepsy] and mental illness. With this in mind the personality disorders are the only candidates left for having any possible association with demonic possession.
Is this what you and the others are suggesting—that personality disorders are caused by demonic possession?
It would be appropriate to first answer the question above as to whether neurological disease [epilepsy] and mental illness are excluded as being causally associated to demonic possession, whereas the correlation between demonic possession and personality disorders remains (this confirmation is only to affirm what to include in our considerations).
If this is correct we should be able to conclude that testing personality disorders for demonic possession is no different than setting up direct controls over biological phenomena, whereby the phenomena can be accurately measured (i.e. studying the characteristics and transmission mechanisms involved in bacteria, viruses, cancers, etc…), because if the natural causal relationships between learned behavior (classical conditioning and operant conditioning) and personality disorders explain the phenomena, there is no need to invoke any spiritual considerations, as a result demonic possession may be excluded as a factor in personality disorders. (These assessments apply just as well to mental illness—in fact I consider mental illness an important factor in personality disorders).
I believe this is why there is no scientific evidence for demonic possession—because demonic possession simply is not a factor in mental illness or personality disorders. Not because as you said above, at the top that, “due to the spiritual nature of this phenomenon scientific evidence cannot exist.” Therefore, science can convincingly conclude that demonic possession is a superstitious fallacy since there are naturalistic explications for the phenomenon. I believe this is already a closed case within the scientific establishment and the criminal justice system. It would seem that the theological and religious communities are having a difficult time accepting the facts.
Although, let us not forget; “The [spiritual dimension] is the location of the thought processes themselves.”
The important point to make here is that the definitions we use for our terms make all the difference in whether we are just talking past each other—because we wrongly interpret what we are saying—or whether we are actually on the same page in our terminology but just don’t agree in our philosophy. Therefore, I will take the time to define what I mean by my terms.
Spiritual entities are constructs of the mind—thoughts. Yes, philosophically thoughts HAVE BEING, however, we cannot conclude that they are BEINGS. Thoughts have substance in that they exist, although, they don’t have a conscious will of their own. This is the problem with advancing the idea of demonic possession, guardian angels, and good and evil BEINGS called God and Satan—it creates the false impression that these entities are actual BEINGS when in fact they HAVE BEING but exist only in the mind. This is the distinguishing factor between realism and idealism.
The philosophic theory called realism insists that objects exist independently of our knowledge of them. Idealism argues that they exist only in the mind [Philosophy (What is Real) — World Book Encyclopedia].
People who experience major depressive disorder who often report hearing voices in their head telling them to commit suicide (not dissimilar to schizophrenia) is similar to what occurs in the hypnagogic or hypnopompic state (the state of drowsiness just before sleep, or the semiconscious state prior to complete wakefulness). The senses become illusory and people experience hallucinations (visions and auditory illusions) that seem very real while they are occurring, but are in fact only figments of the imagination. Therefore, what these individuals experience during these episodes is vivid communication (albeit very scrabbled depending on individual considerations) from the subconscious mind. Their thoughts become much more colorful than what is usual—but they remain thoughts nonetheless.
Psychosis: any severe form of mental disturbance or disease that may also be associated with physical disease and which produces deep and far reaching disruption of normal behavior and social functioning [Psychosis — World Book Encyclopedia Dictionary L-Z].
The mental disturbance in question here is a disturbance in thought and emotion—memories of child abuse, post traumatic experiences, worries and fears of the future, etc… These are all painful emotions that emerge directly from the experiences of the mind. However, pain from any number of physical conditions can also become manifest in the mind and disturb the mental faculties.
Where does demonic possession fit in here? Any rational person will without doubt conclude that the science explains the phenomena rather well.
If a person is psychologically and physically abused as a child and the memories of the abuse and the abuser regularly return to “haunt” the individual, it is the memories of the abuse and the abuser which mentally disturb the person—not demonic possession.
A soldier returns from a mission oversees where he is tortured and witnesses the most horrendous atrocities committed to his fellow comrades. The recurring memories and feelings of the experience become amplified as he faces personal issues at home in reintegrating with society. The recurring thoughts, pain, and suffering that the individual struggles with stem directly from those experiences—not from demonic possession.
A woman loses her husband to cancer who had a mortgage debt for their newly purchased home. Their savings went to pay the hospital fees and she now because of a weak economy loses her job. The worries and fears she experiences of not being able keep the home and pay for her three kids’ education become unbearable and she falls into a major depression. The worries and fears she experiences regarding the future of her children and herself are for the future—not from demonic possession.
I ask again… where does demonic possession fit in here?
As I said before, “the [spiritual dimension] is the location of the thought processes themselves.” If you believe that demons exist you create them by your very thought processes yourself. Although they don’t exist in reality you give them life within yourself. Within others who don’t believe in demons they are not given life. This is what Jon @Jonathan_Burke implied by his following statement here—since as you know he does not believe in demonic possession;
For me evolutionary creationism means that creation has evolved. From the big bang through cosmological evolution and into biological evolution, creation has evolved. The universe is contained within God, while God interpenetrates every part it. This means that God evolves with the evolving creation. God is not separate from the universe but is greater than the universe. God is eternal and shape shifts into different forms as He [it] sees fit—from the eternal animating force, to the Father, to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. From this perspective the [spiritual dimension] had its advent with man and woman—for it is in dreams and visions that men and women have extension into the spiritual dimension (Jacob, Joseph, Daniel, Ezekiel, Mary and Joseph, etc…)
With all the evil that occurs directly through the hands of man himself, what need is there to invoke demonic possession? Referring to it at as a man’s evil inclinations that have been devised by personal intentions makes more sense and is more true to the facts.
Moreover, your expression here is interesting because you state, “something evil extended into the spiritual dimension.” If the evil extends into the spiritual dimension from man who is a part of the physical dimension, I can relate with this reasoning—this is my personal understanding of the formation of reality (whether it be good). In this same vein, as soon as you have “something good extended into the spiritual dimension,” you are speaking about direct Godly influences. But once these creations in the spiritual dimension have been molded they must become manifest in the physical dimension to have any bearing on reality. Nonetheless, the good and evil comes from the heart of man and woman, is devised in the spiritual dimension, and is then made manifest in the physical world.
As for your point that “Spiritual influences would not exist without demons, angels, or God,” I believe it’s wrong. Spiritual influences are created by the constructs of man’s intentions. Although intentions may influence other men and women through fear of demons, angel, and gods does not mean that spiritual influences would not exist without demons, angels, or gods—spiritual influences of true reality can still exist and inspire men and women to do what is right for the advancement and wellbeing of the human race. I can accept the statement, all spiritual forces are due to personal intentions—although—“personal entities” as a term is deceptive and misleading.
Thanks for sharing your ideas here, @Tony. Although I certainly hold a different position than you, I really appreciate how you have taken the time and attention to build your argument carefully. It helps me to understand you better and this is how we can really share constructively.
After the Easter days, I will find the time to write down some of my thoughts about it. For now, I just want to wish you blessings for this time when we all celebrate (extra consciously) the Resurrection of Jesus . I pray that all of us may come to understand ever more deeply what His victory over death means for us.
Let us all be thankful because Jesus gave us another chance to be a good person. His death cleansed us from our sins and His resurrection symbolizes the new life we live as Christians. I wish you and your loved ones the renewal of love, happiness and life .
The same wishes are for everyone else at BioLogos … have a wonderful Easter.
The difference is that the view that “Jesus did not truly die on the cross and was only symbolically resurrected” is a fringe view which is typically not taken seriously in mainstream scholarly literature, whereas this is not the case for “demonic possession doesn’t exist”. And most Christians (no matter what they profess to believe), actually live and act as if demons don’t exist.
Not in mainstream confessional scholarly literature, no.
There’s nothing ad hoc about it. As I have demonstrated, the overall approach I am taking is the standard scholarly hermeneutical method; the historico-critical method. I don’t start with the premise “Important people in church have told me to believe in demons, therefore I must believe in demons and make the Bible conform to this belief”.
Cardinal Bellarmine said something very similar; “The Bible writers never once told anyone a soothing story such as “don’t worry, the earth doesn’t actually move around the sun” Why not? Because that would have been a lie”. Here are his words.
“However, it is different to want to affirm that in reality the sun is at the center of the world and only turns on itself, without moving from east to west, and the earth is in the third heaven and revolves with great speed around the sun; this is a very dangerous thing, likely not only to irritate all scholastic philosophers and theologians, but also to harm the Holy Faith by rendering Holy Scripture false”
“Nor can one answer that this is not a matter of faith, since it is not a matter of faith “as regards the topic”, it is a matter of faith “as regards the speaker””
“I add that the one who wrote, “The sun also riseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose,” was Solomon, who not only spoke inspired by God, but was a man above all others wise and learned in the human sciences and in the knowledge of created things; he received all this wisdom from God; therefore it is not likely that he was affirming something that was contrary to truth already demonstrated or capable of being demonstrated”
So to use your words, “I don’t see any explanation for the fact that Solomon effectively strengthened the belief in such a naive and harmful superstition and even used it to gain credence”. Of course I don’t believe Jesus and the Apostles effectively strengthened the belief in such a naive and harmful superstition and even used it to gain credence. The evidence is to the contrary; demonic possession and exorcism are absent from Paul’s letters and he never encouraged anyone to believe in them. It is no surprise that references to demons and demonic possession virtually vanishes from Christian literature by the end of the first century and is absent from almost all the writings of the Apostolic Fathers. This is not what we would expect from a community which believed strongly in demons, demonic possession, and exorcism.
When you understand why you don’t find Bellarmine convincing, you will understand why I don’t find your argument convincing. It has nothing to do with science, it has everything to do with how Scripture is interpreted. Right now your argument is the same as Bellarmine’s; it’s based on nothing more than “I think”, and “I believe”.
[quote=“Casper_Hesp, post:182, topic:4581”]
If the Apostles meant to teach that the Holy Spirit is an “impersonal, creative power”, they could have simply used neuter pronouns in referring to “it”.[/quote]
There is no text in the NT that clearly or even probably affirms the personality of the Holy Spirit through the route of Greek grammar. The basis for this doctrine must be on other grounds. This does not mean that in the NT the Spirit is a thing, any more than in the OT the Spirit (xwr—a feminine noun) is a female! Grammatical gender is just that: grammatical. The conventions of language do not necessarily correspond to reality.
You also need to understand how Jews (and Christians), of the first century understood the Holy Spirit. This is all covered so widely in the relevant scholarly literature that it’s not even a contentious matter. There’s no dispute over the fact that the idea of the Holy Spirit as a person was a Christian invention of later centuries. It was just made up.
Yes but not in the way you think.
As a past event (I’m a cessationist). There is no such indwelling today as happened at Pentecost. People today claiming the Pentecost experience typically want two things; money or power (or both). Their fruits always give them away.
They received the Holy Spirit gifts, unlike the Christian charlatans of today.
I don’t separate God’s Holy Spirit from God. You don’t separate your arm from you. Of course you are not your arm, but your arm is still part of you. How can you say your arm is not part of you? If you don’t separate your arm from you, how can you separate the Holy Spirit from God and say “The Holy Spirit is actually a different person”? By the way, what’s the name of the Holy Spirit? Should I call him “Holy” or just “Mr Spirit”? Doesn’t it seem rather odd to you for a person to be completely nameless and only referred to in the Bible as a non-person?
I was talking about people, not the Holy Spirit. You expressed doubt that God can guide us within being inside us. Do you believe your friend can’t guide you unless they’re physically inside your body? If humans can do it, why do you believe God is incapable?
Good, we can agree on that.
That’s because you’re not reading the Bible from the point of view of the original audience. You’re reading it from the point of view of a twenty first century Christian who has been told certain things are in the Bible, and that you have to believe them. For example, has it occurred to you that demons are completely absent from the Old Testament? Are you familiar with the socio-historical background of the New Testament demonological and satanological terminology? In this situation you’re like Christians confronted with the fact that Genesis 1 refers to a solid firmament.
I’m not talking about the run of the mill Penteocstal or Charismatic who thinks they’ve had some kind of spiritual experience and that the Holy Spirit dwells in them in some special way, I’m talking about those who claim to have had the Pentecost experience; being able to speak in tongues and heal people at will, performing actual miracles. If half a billion people are really making that claim then I would be very surprised. In reality most Pentecostals don’t make such exciting claims.
And seriously, look at the history of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement. Death by exorcism, death by witch hunting, death by neglect of proper medical care, massive financial fraud, the fruits condemn it as a blight on Christianity. If there was any truth to their claims of supernatural power, we’d be seeing very different fruit, especially the rapid emptying of hospitals due to miraculous healing.
Where did you get that definition of Pentecostal? No charismatic I know believes they can heal people and perform miracles at will. It seems like you have taken the worst televangelism has to offer and projected it wholesale onto a very large and diverse group of people. I just think it’s a bit irresponsible.
That is not my definition of “Pentecostal”. I explained this previously. That is my definition of “the Pentecost experience”; that is, the experience which the apostles had at Pentecost (Acts 2).
There have been some good points about the Charismatic movement. In the early 1900s blacks would worship alongside whites in tent revivals in Oklahoma and other places normally known for racism and strict segregation.
But yes, in addition to the good we see bad stuff also. Some worshipers seem to be thrill-seekers, looking for a spiritual high. And did you hear about the “gold filling” miracles?
First of all, I would like to know what you define as “mainstream” scholarly literature. I think there is huge variation across seminaries, universities, and countries. So I think it’s a very vague support that you are providing for your position. If you really want to press your point, please show me writings of any of the early church fathers or any mainline Christian denomination in the history of our Earth that has flat out denied the reality of demonic possession as an official teaching.
I concede your point on the Greek pronouns, although you ignored my non-grammatical points. I find it ironic that you quote professor Wallace, because he (like me and millions of other Christians around the globe and throughout history) has affirmed the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is a Person, part of the Trinity, in perfect fellowship with the Father and the Son. As Christians, we’re united to that fellowship through Christ. I believe there is also a form of Progressive Revelation involved, in which certain teachings were fleshed out more clearly over the years. That does not mean they were made up. Of course, you wouldn’t agree. It seems you only draw upon the “mainstream” for support whenever it seems to suits your purposes.
Your comparison with the movement of the Earth is inadequate in so many ways that it’s difficult to decide where to start. (1) The writer of Ecclesiastes actually believed what he was saying. He described it from his own point of view. But you were arguing that Jesus and the Apostles actually didn’t believe in demonic entities. That would make them liars if they said things knowing they were false. (2) The eyewitness accounts testify of direct interaction with demons. You did not present any exegetical principle that allows one to distort the Scriptures to such an extent that all direct encounters with demonic entities were imaginary or figurative. For the cases where I accept figurative meanings, it can be argued from the setting of the text (e.g., Genesis 1). (3) Ancient cosmology wasn’t harmful to anyone and it’s accuracy was irrelevant to the teachings. But you and others on this thread have been arguing that belief in demonic possession is false and harmful. Moreover, there is a large number of different passages on bad spirits that indicate that it’s highly relevant for the teachings of the Gospel accounts. So if somebody would have knowledge of this falsehood, they would have had the duty to counteract this teaching. If you believe Jesus and the Apostles were superstitious on this point, just say so.
You think that Jesus did not gain any credence through His authority over demons. You think He did not actually confirm their existence. Again, it’s seems to be an extremely awkward position. Look, for example, at Matthew 22:
22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, “Can this be the Son of David?” 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.” 25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. 26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
On the Holy Spirit:
By receiving His Holy Spirit, we are drawn into a deep fellowship of complete unity with God. It’s what allowed Jesus to make the following promise in John 14:
19 After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
Jesus truly is in us through the Holy Spirit.
I’ll make one more attempt to get the idea across on the difference between indwelling by an impersonal power and indwelling by the Holy Spirit. Consider this analogy. Imagine your heart to be like a basement. If you fill it with something impersonal like water, the water will overtake every single corner and every single notch, whether you like it or not. It does not distinguish or respect any privacy. Filling the basement with water will inevitably lead to a complete overtaking. Now, with a person, this is different. A person’s presence can completely fill the basement without overtaking it. The Holy Spirit indwells us but respects the mystery of our own personhood, guides us but never forces us. In this way, God is perfectly united to us, but at the same time respects that we are free persons.
I hope that’ll help you to understand better where I’m coming from and why I don’t think that guidance would take place through an impersonal power.
Congratulations Jonathan Burke, you are the only person on this whole forum who knows exactly how the Bible should be interpreted. Your position is the only true one. Unfortunately, that also means that the fruitfulness of our discussion has died down many posts ago. If you are already absolutely convinced of your position, there can be no benefit for you in any of my writings.
It seems our conversation on this topic has reached somewhat of a dead end. I sincerely pray that you too may once come to believe and experience the loving fellowship of our God as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Here is a video of demon possession from Emmanuel.TV: Man turns into Animal in church. He doesn’t really turn into an animal, but it’s very disturbing nevertheless. The preacher seems nuttier than the man with the demons. Seems this possessed guy had sacrificed a chicken earlier by biting its head off. He pees in his pants and the demons leave him. When he sets the sacrificial chicken on fire, a new demon enters him and makes him unable to speak.
I believe that demons choose to impersonate dead people at times, which would result in the experience of “ghosts”. So anyone who claims to communicate with the deceased is doing either some tricks or something satanic. Leviticus 19:31 “Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them.”
Well apparently Jesus believed in ghosts. And not just before the resurrection. Jesus after the resurrection believed in ghosts (if we take the Bible literally).
I’m wondering why our new theologians haven’t stepped in and provided their thoughts on the topic of demon possession. I remember a post some weeks ago introducing them. There was even a post from one of them. But lately there hasn’t been any communication.
It’s not their job to read every post on the forum and most blog authors don’t read threads that aren’t attached to their own articles. If you want a specific person to weigh in, you’ll have to @ them and ask if they would care to contribute.
Why do “we” need to make a judgment?
I guess what bothers me about this thread in general is how many all or nothing generalizations have been thrown around with what seems to me to be complete disregard for Scriptural accounts and the personal testimonies of many many people.
I’m uncomfortable with the term “demon possession” because it can mean different things to different people. But it is very clear to me that in the Bible and in the world that most Christians operate in, there is a spiritual/supernatural realm that interacts with the physical/natural realm and it includes forces of evil. I realize there are different ways to label and describe and nuance this and some come out sounding nuttier and less biblical than others. But to simply acknowledge that a spiritual dimension is sometimes the root cause or contributing factor in a person’s physical or psychological unwellness is not the same thing as denying the reality of mental and physical illnesses or denying the validity and efficacy of modern medicine and psychological/psychiatric therapy.
I work with a young indigenous woman who (according to the stories I have heard) stayed in her room for two years (from 15 to 17) suffering from hallucinations, violent episodes that included self-harm, nightmares, inability to eat or sleep normally, and episodes where she would slip into catonic states where she was unresponsive for hours at a time. Her family (who was not Christian) requested a member of the local Christian community to come pray for their daughter because doctors had been unable to identify any physical cause of her symptoms. Several people went to her house, prayed for her in Jesus name, and left. There was no complicated exorcism or ritual because these are pretty straight-laced Baptist/Presbyterian-ish type Christians who are quite suspicious of and down on all things charismatic. All they did was pray for her. She went to sleep and woke up the next day without a single symptom and has not had any of them again for the last three years. If you ask her what was wrong with her, she says she was tortured by evil spirits, but they left. I can’t think of any good reason not to believe her. This is a literate young woman with a high school education and there is nothing you pick up on interacting with her now that would make you think she is anything other than a stable, healthy person. I have heard multiple stories like this from many people I trust in many countries around the world. I also know people with personality disorders and clinical depression and other mental illnesses whose symptoms don’t go away because some one prays for them.
A friend of mine said that her two young daughters started complaining that two of their stuffed animals would whisper terrible, scary things to them at night. The daughters corroborated each other’s accounts of very specific and disturbing things. They prayed for the girls and the episodes stopped completely. Neither child (they are young adults now) has since had any sign of psychiatric disorder or any experiences hearing voices. On the other hand, my son, when he was four, had frequent night terrors. We prayed for him. He still had night terrors. I talked to his pediatrician and found out that the allergy medicine he was taking was linked to psychotic effects in some rare cases. We switched his prescription and the night terrors went away. All that to say, coming up with some surefire metric to determine what is spiritual and what is physical seems like a ridiculous exercise to me. We should pray for people who are suffering with an awareness that sometimes suffering has spiritual causes. We should take people to doctors and psychologists and psychiatrists and get people the right medication to address their physical and mental health needs too, because you can’t pray everything away.
What is so irrational and dangerous about that worldview, which I would say is a traditional Christian worldview embraced by millions of Christians worldwide?
Concerning the details of what demonic possession actually is, some may ask the question—Why do “we” need to make a judgment? Why should “we” even care about solving the mystery? Others may make the statement—the spiritual doesn’t speak to the physical therefore, we can never really know what the truth of the matter is. Hopefully, what is explained and demonstrated here will answer these questions.
There are three examples of multiple personality disorder [demon possession] in this video—(1) the college student with many personalities—with one who wants to kill her, (2) the 40 year old policeman who has a tortured child living within him, and (3) the wife and mother who becomes a five year old. The first (1) example—the college student with many personalities, with one who wants to kill her portrays classic [demon possession], the person who like in the movies requires a ritualistic exorcism. This, however, is the real deal—no movies, no Roman Catholic priest with a Bible, a crucifix, and holy water, or, “the levitation of a small sleeping child about four feet above her bed,” just real science. Listen very carefully to what is being said and what the doctor tells the college student when she is strapped to the bed. Multiple Personality Disorder - Documentary - YouTube
We’ll get to what the person is who did this to this woman when she was just a little child later. And let’s not forget who protects these monsters. Top French Cardinal Hid Scouts Pedophile Scandal
. I pray that all of us may come to understand ever more deeply what His victory over death means for us.
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