'Deep Time' and 'Evolution' allegedly 'falsified' by 'Rigorous' Empirical Research

Faith & Science Conversation
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61

I guess you are in the “there is no such thing as climate change” camp?

See Christians respond that sin has corrupted all of creation, because that is what the bible actually says. It doesnt make a metaphorical claim there, its literal.

How do Christians know this? Because of the historical stories in the bible illistrating that principle…the bible is full of them. A very large number of these stories we have physical evidence for…so its no mythical fairytale.

You ignore the literal death biblical fundamental principle despite the wealth of evidence in the bible supporting it being real.

What i find problematic there, if the bible is largely metaphorical when talking about the wages of sin…

Why Christs physical death on the cross?

What is the purpose for believing that God removing our physical humanity and turning us into spiritual beings at the Second Coming? That cant be metaphorical because its interracting with a known physical..Even if just bones ( in the case of the dead) but dont forget there will be those who are alive at the Second Coming who are changed into heavenly bodies.

I dont see the metaphorical only principle there …it as if you think God had a go, it got screwed up so version 2 is the incorruptible spiritual. There is a second problem with that…Lucifer and his angels were spirits in heaven…spiritual and mortal makes no difference…one is not less likely to be ruined by sin so its not a Darwinian Evolutionary improvement!

Laatly, if God couldnt get it right the first time around, how cannHe fix it at all…its a fundamental “designer” flaw…the designer isnt Almighty and is fallible. That is hugely problematic for the theology and authenticity of the Christian religion.

It seems to me that you believe Christs demontration was an explanation of the final chapter of what must happen to us in an evolutionary pathway to enlightenment. Personally i dont think you have a supportable position there however lets at least try to make sense of what your view is so please explain that theology to us with bible references.

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The Bible is not scientific evidence – unless you can show us where it claims to be!

I went back and read the posts – there’s no such thing there, just an objective analysis of what Burrawang has written and the implications of that.

Absolutely! Many Christians haven’t regarded the opening of Genesis as literal, yet they had no problem knowing God.

What does that have to do with anything, especially with anything I wrote?
It’s just misdirection, a form of dodging.

What others find problematic is you continually resorting to this straw man argument.

You’re the only one here who has said such a thing, so why do you think it?

Do you forget so easily? Slightly different translation this time:

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the uniquely-begotten Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father, and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come.

BTW, every line is a Bible reference; there’s just one word that isn’t direct.

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63

Dear Roy,

I believe the Apostles Creed also:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
he descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic* church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

*that is, the true Christian church of all times and all places.

Yet, it seems we differ ever so much, on so many things as evidenced by the posts made here on this website.

The heart of the matter here is the deception of untold millions of years of DEATH and SUFFERING before Adam sinned that contradicts what the Holy Bible honestly teaches.

That one fact alone uncovers the reality that belief that God used evolution to create is an inaccurate interpretation of the Holy Bible under the guise of being aligned with scientific respectability. Putting man’s beliefs and philosophies before the Holy Bible.

This simple fact of insisting DEATH existed prior to Adam’s sin exposes the error here for what it is, a false teaching, that can only be propped up by, obfuscation, claims of superior linguistic knowledge, and elevating man’s research endeavours above the Holy Bible, and attack’s upon anyone who calls out the deceptive false teaching, that are thinly veiled as being correction and calling out error.

I wish you well,

God Bless,
jon

64

Well some say that. Others disagree, based on the Bible saying the current creation is good.

Do you believe sin has corrupted all of creation? Because if you do then why do you try to use creation to prove your point? It’s like using a ruler that has 3 inches (or 7.62 cm) cut off to measure something and declare that is the actual size.

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65

Dear Bill,

The Holy Bible is absolutely clear that the whole of creation was cursed by God because of Adams disobedience that is sin. That is not an opinion, it is rock solid Biblical fact

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. {to thy…: or, subject to thy husband}

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; {bring…: Heb. cause to bud} 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:14-19

AND,

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Romans 8:22

Therefore, it is Biblically correct that the whole of the creation has been cursed by God, because Adam and Eve were corrupted by sin, they lost their innocence and blameless condition before God and knew good and evil for the very first time when they disobeyed God’s explicit command.
And if you require any further evidence, please, just look around the news reports in the world today; what you will see and hear is wars and rumour’s of wars, famine, pestilence, hatred, violence, sickness and disease, and evil being expressed in so many different ways.

And yet you say that you, “disagree, based on the Bible saying the current creation is good.”?

Please open your eyes to the reality.

God Bless,
jon

66

So now you agree with me @St.Roymond about ‘Deep Time’ in the Scriptures? So here it is for you Jon (my version):

There is a conversion factor for Creation Days based on 2 Peter 3:8:

  • But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Is this just a poetic way of repeating the same thing but in reverse order? No, it’s both ways. The second instance of a thousand years corresponds to the one day with the Lord. So it’s …“and a thousand years (with the Lord) as one (Creation) day.” This makes sense because God is not bound by time. He can act slowly with a drawn out formative creation event, or very quickly with miracles. This is the plain meaning, but there is also a hidden formula here.

A “day with the Lord’’ is us spending a day with the Lord. We have been made in God’s likeness, so it’s our time, our day (same as Adam’s day) with the Lord that is measured as one thousand years of literal earth time. Earth time is to our time as our time is to God’s time. Adam lived a little less than 1,000 years but God said he would die “in the day” he ate from the tree – and that he did!

Lets look at the verse again with some clarification:

  • But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years *(with the Lord) as one day *(of the Lord) or (of Creation).

*Implied clarified meaning added in parenthesis.

The context of this verse is talking about when the Day of the Lord will be which is the same as the 1,000 year reign of Christ (Millennium) where He returns and we reign with Him (i.e. our time with the Lord). It is also the same as the 7th Day (Sabbath) of Creation. This Creation Day is the Day of the Lord which is important to distinguished from a day with the Lord.

So to convert a literal day to a Creation Day, we have:

1 day with the Lord = 1,000 literal years
so 1 year with the Lord = 1,000 literal years x 365 (days per year) = 365,000 (365K) years
so then, 1,000 years with the Lord = 365K x 1000 = 365 million years

I believe the return of Christ was on the Day of Pentecost when He returned in the form of the Holy Spirit and indwelled His multi-part Body of Christ which we are, His physical Return. Jesus is the Image of God, and He completed the 6th Day creation event by making us in His Image. This provides our starting point, 2,000 years ago, to count back from.

One Creation day is 365 million years, but that wont add up to 4.5 billion years over 6 days (365m x 6 = 2.2 bya). If anyone got to this point before, they probably abandoned the idea. The one thing we are missing here though is that a day is not a constant as we go back millions of years. Here is what I’ve compiled from various sources:

Years ago Hours in a year Hours in a day Days in a year
Today 8,766 24 365
100 million 8,766 23.33 376
200 million 8,766 22.66 387
300 million 8,766 22 398
400 million 8,766 21.33 411
500 million 8,766 20.66 424
600 million 8,766 20.33 431
700 million 8,766 20 438
0.8 - 1.5 billion 8,766 19 461
2.0 billion 8,766 18 487
2.5 billion 8,766 17 516
3.0 billion 8,766 15 584
3.5 billion 8,766 12 731
4.0 billion 8,766 10 877
4.5 billion 8,766 4 2192
13.8 billion 8,766 1 8766

By using the number of days in a year starting from the beginning of a Creation day we then get this (the time of Christ being the beginning of Day 7):

Literal Length of Day Days in a Year Beginning of Day End of Day
Day 7 365,000,000 365 0 -365,000,000
Day 6 411,000,000 411 411,000,000 0
Day 5 461,000,000 461 872,000,000 411,000,000
Day 4 461,000,000 461 1,333,000,000 872,000,000
Day 3 487,000,000 487 1,820,000,000 1,333,000,000
Day 2 516,000,000 516 2,336,000,000 1,820,000,000
Day 1 2,192,000,000 2,192 4,528,000,000 2,336,000,000
Beginning 8,766,000,000 8,766 13,294,000,000 4,528,000,000

In conclusion, according to the Scriptures, the universe created “In the beginning” was 13.3 bya (4.23% margin of error with scientific estimate of 13.8 bya), and the Earth was created at the beginning of Day 1, 4.53 bya (0.26% margin of error with scientific estimate of 4.54 bya).

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67

They are.
Genesis just says the ground is cursed to make it difficult for Adam to procure food. Doesn’t say all of creation is cursed.
Romans isn’t talking about a cursed creation. It is talking about the pain of waiting. Read it in context.

Then explain the following verses.

1 Timothy 4:4-5
For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

Psalm 104:24-28
LORD, how many are Your works!
In wisdom You have made them all;
The earth is full of Your possessions.
There is the sea, great and broad,
In which are swarms without number,
Animals both small and great.
The ships move along there,
And Leviathan, which You have formed to have fun in it.
They all wait for You
To give them their food in due season.
You give to them, they gather it up;
You open Your hand, they are satisfied with good.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

If creation is corrupted how are we supposed to perceive God’s nature? Is it corrupted?

Psalm 95:4-5
In his hand are the deep places of the earth; the heights of the hills are his also. The sea is his, for he made it; and his hands formed the dry land.

Matthew 6:26-30
Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by worrying can add a single hour to your span of life? And why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith?

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68

This seems to have gotten lost in the scuffle:

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69

No, because serious and devout biblical scholars found deep time in the scriptures, in Genesis and in Daniel, among other places – and they didn’t abuse poetry to do it, which is what you do.

Bingo – the curse is specific and clearly stated.

I think that’s the most potent: Creation is not so damaged/burdened that God can’t be seen in it. The only alternative is Satan worship via ascribing to him power over God’s Creation sufficient to overthrow God’s intent.

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70

There are Christians who deny that climate change is occurring. There are Christians who are campaigning for changes that might prevent climate change.
There are Christians who are raising money to help those adversely affected by climate change.

‘Christians’ are not so monolithic a group that they all respond the same way to questions about climate change - or indeed about almost any other topic.

So any comment that starts ‘Christians say …’ or ‘Christians believe …’ or ‘Christians respond …’ or ‘Christians know …’ is going to be either trivial or wrong. Either way it’s worthless.

(Wait! Maybe the Christians who say something else aren’t true Christians.)

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71

That is, “idolatry.”

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Dear All,

The heart of the matter here is the deception of untold millions of years of DEATH and SUFFERING is unfortunately believed by many to have occurred prior to when Adam ,(by disobeying God’s explicit command), that contradicts what the Holy Bible teaches.

That one fact alone uncovers the stark reality that Theistic Evolution employs inaccurate interpretations of the Holy Bible under the guise of being aligned with scientific respectability.

God Bless,
jon

73

The real heart of the matter here is the deception by young earth creation advocates.

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74

Burrawang’s post is a classic Young Earth Creationist framing of the issue of death before the Fall:

Core Claim

  • He asserts that any belief in millions of years entails accepting death and suffering before Adam’s disobedience.
  • For him, this flatly contradicts the Bible’s teaching that death entered the world through Adam (Genesis 3; Romans 5:12).
  • On this basis, he dismisses Theistic Evolution as “inaccurate interpretations” masquerading as scientific respectability.

Theological Assumption

  • The underlying assumption is a literalist reading of Genesis: before Adam sinned, there was no death (not even animal death).
  • This view equates “death and suffering” with “evil,” thus incompatible with God’s “very good” creation.

Rhetorical Strategy

  • Strong contrast: “untold millions of years of DEATH and SUFFERING” versus “God’s explicit command.”
  • Reduction to a single “fact”: if death preceded Adam, then the Bible’s teaching is falsified.
  • Casts Theistic Evolution as deceptive, not just mistaken — a moral framing, not only intellectual.

Possible Responses

  1. Biblical-Theological: Many Christians, including Augustine and Aquinas long before Darwin, did not assume all animal death was caused by Adam’s sin. They interpreted “death through Adam” as applying to human beings.
  2. Scientific: The fossil record clearly documents death for hundreds of millions of years before humans appeared. Denying this severs credibility in dialogue with science.
  3. Hermeneutical: YEC presents its interpretation as the biblical one, but there are long traditions of non-literal readings of Genesis.
  4. Philosophical: Equating all death with moral evil assumes that suffering in creation is inherently bad. But predation, decay, and natural processes can also be understood as part of a dynamic, good creation.
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75

It’s observable facts that tell us organisms lived and died over billions of years. You are asking Christians to ignore mountains and mountaisn of observable facts in order to accept your interpretation of Genesis.

For those who actually think observable facts count for something, this only leaves them with the option that the Bible is false. It is no different than insisting Geocentrism is the only correct interpretation of the Bible.

“But to want to affirm that the Sun, in very truth, is at the centre of the universe and only rotates on its axis without traveling from east to west, and that the Earth is situated in the third sphere and revolves very swiftly around the Sun, is a very dangerous attitude and one calculated not only to arouse all Scholastic philosophers and theologians but also to injure our holy faith by contradicting the Scriptures….”–Cardinal Bellarmine, 1615

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76

NO, TE uses an interpretation of the Bible that is guided by both a correct understanding of the text in the original language and what we see in God’s good creation. You know the creation that is supposed to show us God’s nature.

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A nature of which it is said that God provides prey for the predator, which He wouldn’t do if it was evil.

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78

According to the Psalms it is God who gives lions their food. That food is living animals. Thus according to the scriptures God directly contributes to suffering and death.
Given that God is good, nothing He does can be evil. Thus giving animals into suffering and death cannot be evil.
If giving animals into suffering and death isn’t evil now, it wasn’t evil before the Fall.
Thus the claim of false teaching fails.

Yes, this seems strange and objectionable, but it’s in the scriptures. The only way to avoid it would be to say that the Psalmist was just expressing his own opinion – which would mean that God allows error in the scriptures.

So the only way to defend your view boils down to saying that God allows error in the scriptures.
So which way will you go: deny what the scripture says, or decide that God allows errors?

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79

The two passages don’t say what you claim. In the first one, the curse is specified – it is a curse ‘against’ the ground, stating that it will not exactly cooperate with Adam for getting food. In the second, it says nothing about Creation being cursed, only that it suffers, and Paul tells why it suffers – it’s waiting for the children of God to be revealed, which means that we are the burden it bears in pain, not any curse.

So when it’s convenient to you, you set reality against the Bible? You’re basically throwing out 1 Timothy which states in plain language that everything created by God is good.

The real issue here is that you are treating YEC as though it was the pope and his cardinals who claim to be able to be free of error, despite the fact that centuries upon centuries of good Christian theologians disagree, and you ignore the fact that every Christian here takes the scriptures seriously.

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  • St. Roymond is showing that YEC claims are not the “plain reading” of scripture, but selective readings that ignore both the details of the text and the wider theological tradition. He forces the issue of biblical consistency: if you say YEC is the only faithful option, you must either twist scripture’s plain words or accuse the Bible of error.
  • Read it and weep, Burry.

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