'Deep Time' and 'Evolution' allegedly 'falsified' by 'Rigorous' Empirical Research

Faith & Science Conversation
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Dear T_aquaticus,

my Holy Bible (KJV) has the poetic Psalms saying something different to what you have written:

1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. 2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: 3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: 4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: 5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. 6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains. 7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. 8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them. {They go up…: or, The mountains ascend, the valleys descend} 9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

Verse 5 of Psalm 104 in my KJV Holy Bible uses the word “removed”, that simply means that what the LORD God has created, shall remain in place, that is, it shall not be removed.

I do suggest that you read the informative article at the link below:

From the article at the above link is this short but relevant to your assertion, excerpt:

“One of the biggest misconceptions that people have about the Bible is that while narrative teaches history, poetry is not conveying historical truth. While the poetry in the Bible does not communicate in the same way as narrative (or it would not be poetry), and has different emphases, it is a vehicle for communicating truth. The main difference is that the goal in narrative writing is generally to convey what happened, while the poetry in the Bible, and particularly in the Psalms, generally calls us to worship God because of His character and actions.”

For me at least, what is important, is that we should rejoice in what the LORD God has done for us:

31 The glory of the LORD shall endure for ever: the LORD shall rejoice in his works. 32 He looketh on the earth, and it trembleth: he toucheth the hills, and they smoke. 33 I will sing unto the LORD as long as I live: I will sing praise to my God while I have my being. Psalm 104:31-33

I believe you would also benefit greatly by reading the article at the link below:

God Bless,

jon

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English usage has certainly changed since the KJV. In fact when it was first published people complained the English was out of date, because it was. Looking at BibleHub every translation, except for the KJV, says the earth will never be moved. What is interesting is the earlier English translations that form the basis for the KVJ also say the earth shall never move.

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365

Dear Marshall,

I would have thought that any reasonable person, would know that horses give birth to horses, and lions give birth to lions and human beings give birth to human beings, but such is the pedantic attack on every word I write here, it seems that I overestimated what SHOULD be obvious.

It should be absolutely clear as crystal that when the Holy Bible informs us that “Eve is the mother of ALL the living” that the Holy Bible is referring to ALL the living HUMAN BEINGS, that is, ALL the people on Earth.

God Bless,

jon

366

Just as it should be clear that when Paul says “sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned,” he is referring to all people, not the beginning of animal death or the death of all “nephesh” creatures.

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367

Dear Bill,

yes, of course there are various meanings in English for words in Hebrew, that sometimes aren’t as ideal as the intent or meaning in the Hebrew.

ה יָסַד-אֶרֶץ, עַל-מְכוֹנֶיהָ; בַּל-תִּמּוֹט, עוֹלָם וָעֶד. 5 Who didst establish the earth upon its foundations, that it should not be moved for ever and ever;

And I suggest, that the poetic language used here with the word ‘moved’ still means precisely the same thing as the word ‘removed’, which is that the Earth will remain, that is, it will not be taken away, rather than having it mean that the Earth is stationary,

But whatever the meaning here, it is poetic language, and should be understood as such, just like all the other Psalms, such as for example Psalm 100:3

3 Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

This in the same manner as Psalm 104, is obviously poetic writing, this verse does NOT literally mean that we are sheep, but the figurative meaning SHOULD be clear to all who read it.

I suggest that you read the articles at the links in Post number 361 above.

God Bless,

jon

368

Dear Marshall,

yes, clearly this verse tells us WHEN death FIRST came into the creation, but it makes no mention of the animals.

When Adam sinned, the LORD God put Adam and Eve out of the Garden lest they eat the fruit of the tree of life also and live forever. God put a curse upon the WHOLE of creation and subjected the WHOLE of creation to vanity (or futility), so that the previously immortal man would now only be a mortal man who instantly (as witnessed by the guilt and shame they felt through their God given consciences), had a very tangible reason to seek what is Holy and Just, that is, the Love, the Goodness and Righteousness of God, rather than barrelling headlong into eternity without death, whilst expressing evil all the time.

Mercifully, God would not permit that, and put Adam and Eve OUT of the Garden of Eden and mercifully caused all of creation to be cursed, thereby all nephesh life would only have a finite time on Earth, death had arrived in the creation, and we are faithfully informed in the Holy Scriptures that death is an ‘intruder’ into the previously perfect creation, and we are also informed that death will be done away with, in the new creation that the LORD God will create in the future, that will bring the creation back again to be very good as the LORD God first made it in the beginning, without death.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans 8:19-21

God Bless,

jon

369

First, “removed” in the KJV may not mean the same thing as you understand removed. The fact that no other translation uses “removed” would tell me the KJV meaning may be different. And then there is the first part of the verse. Foundations would point to a stable support for the earth that prevents movement. Given what I have seen for tornadoes a firm foundation certainly doesn’t prevent the house from being removed. God is saying He has built the earth on firm foundations that prevent the earth from moving. Kind of like the story of building a house on sand. Yes it is poetic, but to the original audience they would associate this with the fact that to them the earth doesn’t move and thus they would give Him the glory.

Right, it is clearly a metaphor. Which the previous verse clearly isn’t.

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Dear Bill,

the author is saying in poetic language that God has built the Earth on firm foundations, yes, I agree with that, but I honestly do not believe that you can honestly state what the original audience took from this poetic song. I personally have the view that they were highly intelligent people, who had no difficulty distinguishing between what is obviously poetry written to be recited to music and historical accounts that recall real events.

Whatever is in fact the Truth, it is not as important as the vital life giving Gospel of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. To Him be the Glory, the Praise, the Worship and Honour for ever and ever. Amen.

God Bless,

jon

371

To the Silent Audience

By this point in the thread, it is obvious that Jon does not engage with evidence. He repeats the same citations and links, but never acknowledges the 101 counters that were laid out earlier. That is not dialogue—it is testimony. And testimony repeated without regard to counterpoints becomes fruitless repetition.

The contrast is plain:

  • Fruitless Repetition: quoting the same verse, the same translation, the same website, and asserting the same conclusion, no matter what evidence is presented.

  • Fruitful Engagement: actually addressing counterarguments, examining the Hebrew text, comparing translations, and recognizing the difference between poetic imagery and cosmological claims.

Silent Audience: the choice isn’t really about Jon. It’s about you. When you read this exchange, do you see fruitless repetition or fruitful witness? Which one builds understanding, and which one stalls it?

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I see Jon engaging in costly boundary signaling that establishes his place in his YEC group. And I only engage with him to let anyone in the silent audience who might be on the fence to see what is on our side.

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We aren’t talking about historical events. They were intelligent people but were limited to naked eye observations of the world around them and the OT is full of these. As a consequence the OT is full of teaching that if taken literally would be incorrect. Feel free to throw in “accommodation” as needed. But here is the problem, once you start to argue accommodation how do you know when to stop?

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374

Actually, that did not work any better for the Egyptian pharaohs than it did for the Habsburgs, so nothing has changed morally or scientifically.

Another worthless assertion. You are 180 degrees wrong. In post after post in this thread, you have made claims that are blatantly contrary to facts and data, and when called out on it you just mutter something about worldview and carry on to the next falsehood. The fact is that extent human genetic variation is absolutely incompatible with a single pair 6,000 years ago and a bottleneck of 8 souls 4500 years ago. Extensive sequencing of ancient DNA shows haplotype variation in nuclear and mitochondrial DNA, and Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA are waaay further removed.

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375

I think it is worth remembering that the English of the KJV is (roughly speaking) the English of Shakespeare. In reading Shakespeare do we get the feeling that words are being used in entirely their modern sense? (Though this may understate the case, as Shakespeare tended to be quite innovative, and thus forward-looking, in his use of English.)

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376

Dear Bill,

thanks for your thoughts.

I must ask, what group?

Do you really think that I am a part of some group? I tell you honestly right now, I am not.

The only group that I am a part of is the body of Christ, a Christian who is grateful for the grace and Love bestowed on me and all of us by our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Please be assured that I am not trying to score ‘Brownie Points’ with any group, sadly that is a tad cynical and is completely false.

As I’ve stated previously, the Holy Bible does not need me to be testifying as to the veracity of the Holy Scriptures; that should be evident to everyone who looks at the world around them and who reads the Holy Bible. But is does appear that some people here are absolutely convinced that ‘deep time’ and ‘evolution’ are proven fact, set in concrete, but that is of course not the case at all.

Deep time and evolution are both false philosophies that are leading millions away from the Gospel and Salvation which is indeed a terrible tragedy.

My only reason for spending what little spare time I have available here on this website, is as a brother in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour, who in my own small way is trying to provide some balance to the eye wateringly one sided discussion on this site, in the hope that perhaps some will have reason to turn from this philosophy of death and suffering over billions of years that is leading so many away from the LORD God and consequently from Salvation.

When I was young, the Churches here in Australia were packed full of Worshipers with in many cases standing room only. In many cases around Churches on a Sunday morning were cars parked in all streets on both sides of the road for about half a mile in almost all directions.

At the present time, most Churches are a shadow of their former strength of a completely Christian community, with I would guess less than 10% perhaps even only 5% or less in some areas, of what the congregations were in the 1950’s. Thankfully there are some exceptions, that are still full of Christians folk, but across the board of all the mainstream denominations, it is predominantly only white haired elderly people with a handful of young ones. I pray that the United States of America stands firm on the Holy Bible as it has done so well for so long, and I hope it doesn’t go down the slippery slope to unbelief that has infected Australia and other parts of the west.

When I was in school, evolution was mentioned, along with other ideas, but it was not the philosophical juggernaut that it has become over roughly the past fifty years.

As acceptance of, and belief in evolution grew, sadly, I think that many people wrongly believed that science has explained how we came to be here, the big questions now had scientific answers, and God simply became irrelevant to many people, and as a consequence, there has been a massive falling away from the Christian faith here in Australia.

The most unjust and saddest irony of all, is that people such as some who profess belief as TEC unashamedly blame people like me, (who accept and believe the Holy Bible to be faithful, trustworthy and true), as the reason why so many people are leaving the Church, or just not being saved in the first place. The philosophies of deep time and evolution will have a lot to answer for in due course.

The scrupulously honest, late Cornell biologist William Provine said, “belief in modern evolution makes atheists of people. One can have a religious view that is compatible with evolution only if the religious view is indistinguishable from atheism.”

The LORD God that I worship, is far more benevolent, empathetic, Loving, Righteous and Holy than anyone of us can fully comprehend.

He is HOLY, HOLY, HOLY! He is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY!

He would NEVER create, the creation and all life through such a messy, cruel manner that of design would have unimaginable suffering and billions of years of death as its cornerstone. I am amazed that so many here do not seem to realise even that most basic of realities about Who the LORD God is, that is, His Holiness, His Goodness, His Kindness, His Righteousness, His Justice, His Love.

Why it is, that so many people here, appear to be utterly blind to the enormity of the stark incongruity in believing that the Creator, the Loving Benevolent HOLY LORD God, used evolution to create life, I really do not know? That question truly baffles me.

I sincerely hope that many here will pray and ask the LORD to reveal the truth to them about these matters. But as I have said before, at the end of the day, what is most important is having a personal relationship with the LORD and accepting His gracious sacrifice given in Love to us all for our salvation from eternal separation from Him.

God Bless,

jon

377

Dear Bill,

well the creation was a historical event, and the Global Flood of Noah’s day was a historical event, but parts of the Psalms are more about worship, more about singing praises for what He has done for us, although the Psalms can provide considerable insight in places about historical events, such as in Psalm 104.

God Bless,

jon

378

And you think there will be no accountability for the falsehoods taught in the name of young earth creationism, several of which are found in this topic?

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379

It’s like JWs gathering at busy nexi on the way to town centres, it’s not done for anyone’s benefit but themselves, as you never see anyone engaging with them. It creates group closure, it bonds the group in the face of passive rejection. They are united in martyrdom. They are more rewarded the more they are ignored. I can never bring myself to make eye contact and smile and say good afternoon, which would actually counter their raison d’être, I actually walk as close by them as possible and stare in to the distance. Which mutely passively aggressively generates negative energy in me. That sails, psychologically, close to the wind! Not that they ever make eye contact whilst chatting among themselves, being martyrs, being proved, tested, reinforced. They actually don’t invite interaction. And they are rewarded.

So how are the drones here like JWs? They crave engagement. But not from the like minded that they don’t even ‘like this post’ with the vast majority of the time. They are all self-radicalized lone wolves. Which doesn’t preclude them being in fellowship. JWs are united in their martyrdom by being ignored together, our guys, and it’s ALWAYS testosterone driven Freudian (homo)sexual sublimation, are re-proofed by constant (although a basic behavioural time study would be interesting) attention. Abuse is better than neglect for them. In Reichian terms, JW’s sublimation is a publicly ignored, neglected, mainly heterosexual group orgy, our guys are exhibitionists safely provoking male group reaction. In both cases rejection reinforces their behaviour.

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It is sad to see the decline that have happened in many churches during the last 50 years. It may be that in some churches, interpretations that have lead to obviously false claims have driven many away. In most churches, the decline has NOT happened because there is better scientific knowledge about our past.

I do not know all the reasons behind the decline but suspect that ‘idol worshipping’ in modern societies plays a role. What I mean with ‘idol worshipping’ is the social models that admire fame, richness and individualistic strive towards ‘happiness’. “I, me, my way, my success, my money, my happiness” are natural reactions but in those called Christians, give a weak and implausible testimony about Christ.

This model has permeated the western societies in such a way that we have been blinded to what Christianity originally told. A strive towards lower taxes (to increase my wealth), hatred against and rejection of immigrants, verbal and even physical attacks against those that do not belong to ‘us’ - those are ‘normal’ behaviours even among ‘good conservative Christians’. That kind of testimony stinks up to the Heaven and drives people away from the ‘Christians’ that promote this kind of behaviours.

I am happy that there seems to be some movement towards God among the young. They do not copy the models of the previous generations but search for the truth and are open to the matters of God. In contrast to the generations of their parents, they have also humbleness and wish to listen to the experiences and advice of the older believers - taking what is good, not everything. This new generation gives me the hope that God may be changing the future of the post-Christian societies.

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In England, 57 million people, it’s less than 3% and falling to an asymptote topped up by the seeking young. Where Roman Catholics are the largest minority, which speaks to consistent tradition. Not being trendy.

:united_kingdom: Unique Weekly Church Attendance by Nation (2023–2024)

Nation Unique Weekly Church Attenders Population (2023 est.) % of Population Attending Weekly
England ~1,580,000 ~56.5 million ~2.8%
Scotland ~300,000 ~5.4 million ~5.6%
Wales ~150,000 ~3.1 million ~4.8%
Northern Ireland ~400,000 ~1.9 million ~21.0%
United Kingdom ~2,430,000 ~66.9 million ~3.6%

I blame the Reformation.

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What you mean with this statement is that you would not create in such a way.

The questions of suffering and theodicy are challenging ones. There are partial explanations to it, like the free will of created beings and living in the best possible universe where natural phenomena may sometimes cause destruction. The claim that we suffer because two of our ancestors took a fruit does not solve the problem of theodicy.

Whatever the reason for the continuing suffering is, it is the reality where we have to live. Even becoming a believer and living close to Jesus does not remove the suffering. On the contrary, it may even increase personal suffering - Jesus promised persecutions against his followers. For whatever reason, God does not seem to view suffering in the same way as we do. Rather than taking away all the suffering, He comes in the middle of the suffering, to be with us in those moments.

These observations and experiences make me think that God may have allowed some suffering through the ages. Giving food to the hungry cubs of a predator is good for them but may be suffering to the prey.

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