I know evolution is a concrete fact. I know that it isn’t a myth. I know that there are no ‘competent scientists in the world who see the numerous fatal flaws that evolutionary belief is riddled with’. Please cite any. At all. Any at all. Competent scientist. Fatally flawed evolutionary knowledge. Non-knowledge evolutionary belief. Knowledge is a subset of belief that you cannot demonstrate here. Only the remnant. Mere unknowledgeable, knowledge-free, two-a-penny belief.
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Dear Ron,
"a view"?
Isn’t a view that suffering and death are natural for animals but not for humans (or angels) a belief from “outside”?
The other massively relevant factor here is that we all know that the LORD God is good. We know that because Jesus tells us that there is no-one good except the Father.
We know that God is Righteous, and God is Just, and God is Loving, and God is Holy and God is Eternal.
Perhaps you are unable to put all that together, I really don’t know, but to me it is plain that death and suffering are not consistent with God’s personal attributes. You may think they are, but I for one, don’t.
Death to me is a cruel thing that was NOT part of the original creation that the LORD God so Lovingly made for us all. Death only entered the creation AFTER Adam sinned. NOT BEFORE that fateful day!
That is what the Holy Bible so clearly states, to argue differently is to argue against the message in the Holy Scriptures. Death came into the creation as the result of Adam’s disobedience; and it entered the creation because of God’s deep love for us all, He couldn’t allow mankind to fall into evil and not have a reason to get right again with Himself, Who is PERFECTLY JUST. It is as much as anything to do with Adam’s fall, and God’s Perfectly Loving Character, that left Him the only option to save as many as Love Justice and Righteousness, to be saved by His plan of Redemption that was fulfilled 2,000 years ago.
Are you saying that the TE worldview does not care about the Holy Bible?
This is where you go off the rails, the Holy Bible tells us ever so clearly that God commanded, “And God Said”, and at the end of that day the text tells us:
“And the evening and the morning were the 1,2,3,4,5,6 day”.
Furthermore, THE SAME CREATOR, Who is JESUS CHRIST, performed miracles on Earth about 2,000 years ago, and the same thing, He commanded the waves, and wind and storm to be still and it was so, IMMEDIATELY, and,
He fed the 4,000 and the 5,000 not over billions of years, but immediately, and it was so.. and they picked up baskets of leftovers, and
He turned water into wine, IMMEDIATELY, and it was so, etc.. etc.. etc..
Thus WHY do you not believe that which is ever so clear to millions of Christians around the world that God spoke and it happened, right then, right there, not some massive imaginary period of time later.
Please Roy, enlighten me, what is the five-minute homily, you say emanates from these ten God inspired words the author is telling us, other than another normal day has elapsed.
Dear Apistos,
thanks for your thoughts.
I disagree that evolution is concrete fact, it is concrete myth.
There are many thousands of scientists worldwide who agree that evolution is a house of cards, a smokescreen, so improbable that its impossible.
Yes, I know that it doesn’t claim to explain the origin of life, but really that is just a cop out, a way of avoiding the most important question that it must answer to be plausible.
Anyway, just a cursory search of the CMI website came up with a few scientists just from their staff in various countries:
AUSTRALIA OFFICE
Scientists/Speakers
Name Main Qualification Roles
Ross Peeters B. Computing and Mathematical Sciences (Hons.) * CEO
Dr Don Batten Ph.D. in plant science * Senior Scientist
- Speaker
- Writer/Editor
Dr Tas Walker Ph.D in Engineering, honours degree in Geology * Senior Staff Geologist
- Speaker
- Writer/Editor
- Geological fieldwork
Dr Pierre Gunnar Jerlström Ph.D. in Molecular Biology * Staff Scientist
- Chief Editor, Journal of Creation
Dr Mark Harwood Ph.D. in science/engineering (satellite specialist) * Speaker
Rod Walsh Noah’s Ark specialist and model builder * Speaker
Dr John Anderson M.B., B.S.; Licentiate in Theology (ThL); General Practitioner * Speaker
Dr Ron Neller Ph.D. (fluvial geomorphology) * Speaker
- Scientist
- Writer
Neville Chamberlain B.E. Electrical (Hons) * Speaker (fluent in Cantonese)
Dr Michael Thompson Ph.D. in coastal engineering * Speaker
- Scientist
- Writer
CANADA OFFICE
Scientists/Speakers
Name Main Qualification Roles
Richard Fangrad Diploma in electronics, worked on testing missile guidance, radar, communications, and other advanced systems. * CEO
- Speaker
- Writer
- TV show production
Matt Bondy Hon. B.Math. (Computer Science), B.Ed. (Secondary) Founded and operated a successful e-commerce software company for over 20 years. * COO
- IT
- Speaker
Jim Mason Ph.D. (experimental Nuclear Physics), extensive involvement in the development of complex electronic systems. * Speaker Emeritus
- Writer
Gus Olsthoorn Aircraft Maintenance Engineer * Speaker
Thomas Bailey B.A. in Drama, a B.Ed. and a Diploma in Ministry * Speaker
- Event Planning
Clarence Janzen B.Sc. (Biology), B.Ed. (Secondary), Jour Elecn (Journeyman Electrician Telecommunications) * Speaker
Jim Hughes B.A., (cum laude) Harvard University; M.A., University of British Columbia, and Ottawa Theological Hall * Speaker
Dr Nathanael King Ph.D. (Chemistry), postdoctoral researcher * Speaker
NEW ZEALAND OFFICE
Scientists/Speakers
Name Main Qualification Roles
Andrew Mulcahy Bachelor of Arts (Bible & Theology) and Master of Philosophy (Intercultural Studies) * CEO
Mark James B.Sc. (Hons) (Organic Chemistry) * Speaker
- Events Manager
Michael Cook Advanced Trade Certificate in Radio and Associated Electronics * Speaker
Mike Collins Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer, Private Pilot’s licence * Speaker
Friedlieb Lorenz Dr. rer. nat. Dipl.-Phys., MSc, F.A.M.P, MACPSEM * Speaker
Shaun Doyle B. Environmental Science (Hons 1), Grad. Dip. Natural Resource Studies * Writer/Editor
SINGAPORE OFFICE
Scientists/Speakers
Name Main Qualification Roles
Dr Samuel Gan Ph.D. (Allergy), B.Sc. (Molecular Cell Biology), B.Sc. (Psychology) * Speaker
Dr KeeFui Kon Ph.D. (Agriculture), M.Agr.Sc. (Hons) * Speaker
UNITED KINGDOM OFFICE
Scientists/Speakers
Name Main Qualification Roles
Philip Bell B.Sc. zoology, Former cancer researcher * CEO
- Speaker
- Writer
Phil Robinson B.E.d., M.Div. * Speaker
- Writer
Dr Thomas Fretwell M.A. in Theology, Ph.D. in History * Speaker
- Writer
Lucien Tuinstra B.Sc. in Applied Physics M.C.Ed. in Biblical Education & Apologetics * Speaker
- Writer
Andrew Sibley M.Sc. in Environmental Decision Making, M.Phil. in Theology * Writer
- Speaker
UNITED STATES OFFICE
Scientists/Speakers
Name Main Qualification Roles
Erin Hughes Extensive background in event management, logistics and independent business management * CEO
- Writer
Dr Jonathan Sarfati Ph.D. in Physical Chemistry * Senior Scientist
- Speaker
- Writer/Editor
Dr Robert Carter Ph.D. in Marine Biology * Staff scientist
- Speaker
- Writer
- Researcher
Scott Gillis Corporate Project Management B.A. in Religious Studies * Speaker
Keaton Halley M.A. in Christian Apologetics * Speaker
- Writer
- Graphic Artist
Joel Tay Th.M, M.Div, B.Sc., Dip Biotech * Speaker
- Writer
- Research
Beau Rogers Retired Colonel, United States Air Force * Speaker
SOUTH AFRICA OFFICE
Scientists/Speakers
Name Main Qualification Roles
Robert Zins B.Sc. Experience as a missionary in central Africa for more than ten years. * CEO
Pieter le Roux M.Sc. in zoology * Speaker
- Ministry Coordination
Eminent apostle Peter, prophesied regarding “scoffers” in “the last days” claiming “everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation”
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: {standing: Gr. consisting} 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:3-7
God Bless,
jon
None of them is of the consilience.
It is telling that half of the scientists you referred to do not even have their PhD’s, and of those that do only a few are practicing experimental or field researchers.
Of the Christian scientists and geologists I’ve encountered, there are none that do not accept an ancient Earth.
Scientists, as opposed to apologists, overwhelmingly find that evidence for an ancient Earth and evolution is beyond doubt. These are statements from scientific associations.
Geology Society of America
The evolution of life on Earth stands as one of the central concepts of modern science that is accepted by the scientific community. Two centuries of research in geology, paleontology, and biology have produced an increasingly detailed, consistent, and robust picture of how life on Earth evolved.
Australian Academy of Science
The theory of evolution has been extensively tested, and represents our best current understanding of the development of biodiversity around the globe
American Association for the Advancement of Science
Evolution is one of the most robust and widely accepted principles of modern science.
American Anthropological Association
The principles of evolution have been tested repeatedly and found to be valid according to scientific criteria.
Botanical Society of America
Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life.
The National Academy of Science
Evolution is a core concept in biology that is based both in the study of past life forms and in the study of the relatedness and diversity of present-day organisms. The rapid advances now being made in the life sciences and in medicine rest on principles derived from an understanding of evolution. That understanding has arisen both through the study of an ever-expanding fossil record and, equally importantly, through the application of modern biological and molecular sciences and technologies to the study of evolution.
American Chemical Society
…evolution is central to our modern understanding of science. Evolutionary theory is not a hypothesis, but is the scientifically accepted explanation for the origin of species, and explains significant observations in chemistry, biology, geology, and other disciplines….The theory of biological evolution is based on hundreds of years of scientific observation and experimentation and tens of thousands of scientific publications.
American Astronomical Society
Astronomical observations show that the Universe is many billions of years old
Many people from a variety of religious faiths accept the testimony of science, including evidence for the great age of the universe. Indeed, they may find that it deepens their understanding of creation and reinforces their faith.
There is no controversy among credible scientists. Evolution is as founded as the atomic theory, the germ theory, or the cell theory.
There is no purported evidence for a young Earth that is not tainted with misrepresentation and falsehood, and anyone qualified in science who maintains otherwise is culpable as they have the training to know better.
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Actually, I was thinking about the patterns of generic diversity. You see, rapid expansion of a population from a tiny founder set would be reflected in the comparative genetics of the population today. One may compare the genomes of people from all over the world today to trace the histories and relationships of various populations. There is no evidence of a genetic or population bottleneck tracing back a mere few thousand years ago. Likewise for animals that would’ve propagated after leaving Noah’s ark. Proposing ‘genetic perfection’ of a founding population makes the case worse for the patterns and levels of generic diversity we see today.
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Sure there is disagreement. Ancient DNA invalidates your statement.
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Well let’s make sure we’re getting our facts straight about this.
First: There are fewer than 1,300 signatories to the Scientific Dissent from Darwinism. That stretches the meaning of the word “many” to the limit; it is also fewer than the number of undergraduates reading Natural Sciences at Cambridge University alone at any one time. Furthermore, of these, only a small minority of them are geologists or evolutionary biologists.
Second: The statement they have signed is a very weasel worded and misleading one that does not say what most young earthists and evolution deniers believe that it says. It says specifically this:
“We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.”
This statement does not say that the theory of evolution as a whole is any sort of “house of cards” or “smokescreen.” It says nothing to contradict the fact that all life on earth, humans and animals included, shares a common ancestor. And it most certainly does not say anything to call into question the fact that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old and not six thousand.
In fact, it is quite possible to agree with this statement in its entirety while accepting everything that is taught about evolution in schools and universities.
It merely says that two specific aspects of the theory of evolution are insufficient to account for the complexity of life. But this is what is taught in schools and universities anyway. The big difference is that schools and universities acknowledge that there are other mechanisms at work (e,g, genetic drift, horizontal gene transfer, endogenous retroviruses etc).
In other words, a tiny fraction of the world’s scientists, from a wide variety of disciplines, many of them irrelevant to the discussion at hand, have signed a statement that does not say what it is routinely portrayed as saying. To claim that “there are many thousands of scientists worldwide who agree that evolution is a house of cards, a smokescreen, so improbable that its impossible” is a gross exaggeration at best in just about every dimension imaginable.
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It is a concrete fact. Evolution is happening now. We can see it’s effects, and watch it in action. We see it in bacteria becoming immune to antibiotics. We see it in viruses becoming immune to vaccines. We see it in small animals that become camouflaged against polluted trees or manmade structures. We have even demonstrated that it happens in the lab.
If you think evolution is not happening today, you are either deluded or blinkered.
I note that you stopped quoting my post immediately before the words “after the flood”. It seems to me that you wished to reply as if I was talking about evolution in the distant past, and not about evolution in the last 4,000 years. That would make you dishonest.
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Dear Roy,
REALLY?
Then for starters exactly where are the billions, no trillions, no billions of trillions of intermediate animals that culminated in the diversity of life on Earth, and I mean both extant and extinct species.
REALLY!
I think what you are referring to is NATURAL SELECTION in action, nothing more and nothing less.
Our brilliant Creator built an amazing quantity of adaptability into the genetics of all life.
Please tell me what lab has demonstrated evolution?
And what did they demonstrate that is not simply more NATURAL SELECTION WITHIN A SPECIES OR EVEN THE BROADER BIBLICAL KIND?
No Roy, it is not I that is “either deluded or blinkered” here!
No Roy, there’s no conspiracy, just using common sense to get the focus of what I was saying here.
A bacteria developing a resistance to an antibiotic for example is NOT evolution, it is NATURAL SELECTION at work. It may be as simple as a single nucleotide, being omitted or swapped with a different one or any other possibility of error in the exceedingly complex information in the genome that codes for something that no longer works correctly, such as a pump or pore opening that does not allow the antibiotic into the bacterium, thus it is resistant, however, I really do need to inform you that is NOT EVOLUTION.
To explain in a bit more detail, when I say evolution is a myth, I am talking about the inane belief of an imagined process that started out somewhere, perhaps as a single cell that could reproduce itself, in a primordial soup, or deep sea vent, or who knows wherever, that over billions of years has multiplied and diversified into all the diversity of life that has lived upon the Earth. In terms of information, evolution claims that all the NEW INFORMATION that arose over eons all by itself, perhaps from genetic mutations, or whatever, that corresponds to the diversity of prokaryotic and eukaryotic cells that have and do still live upon, over and under the Earth and sea and lakes and rivers and dams, a cogent, logical and believable account of where the stupendously integrated complex information came from.
No-one that I know of, thinks the information in all living things is trivial, or simple to understand, it is mindbogglingly complex, and incomprehensibly integrated, to a level that we humans can only dream about, and the information storage capacity of DNA right down at the molecular level, is absolutely genius beyond description, that in comparison, makes our pathetic little computers look like kindergarten level attempts at miniaturisation of information storage.
So please tell me, where do you believe all that novel information came from in the assumed ascension from single cell to you and me?
God Bless,
jon
Dear James,
what you fail to recognise here is that the LORD God Himself created all life on Earth at His command, “And God Said”, “and it was so”, that is, there is the SAME DESIGNER for ALL LIFE ON EARTH, the claim of ‘common ancestor’ is a philosophical belief pure and simple, the Common Designer that makes enormous sense, because all life on Earth lives at roughly the same strength of gravity, and are subjected to similar physical effects and chemistry, within the range of ecosystems on the planet, that vary from deep ocean to high mountain top, obviously there are adaptations to their unique environments, but overall the same designer means similar blueprints.
Nothing whatsoever to do with a common ancestor, which is merely a part of the evolution fairy tale, that unfortunately is infecting the minds of many today attending most educational institutions.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:2
God Bless,
jon
Where is that in the Bible? The plain meaning of “after its kind” is the opposite of adaptation. The church fathers say nothing about animals adapting. Theologians throughout history say nothing at all about the Creator building in adaptability. Why would they; it is not in the Bible. But now, because evolution is a demonstrable and undeniable fact, you deflect by ascribing an imaginary limit to adaptation, and then with no textual justification project that foreign concept into the Bible.
There is no being a little bit pregnant, adaptation is evolution. The diversity you see around you has adapted from a common ancestor.
All animals are intermediate.
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Given every generation is an intermediate that gives you all those billions of trillions. Why do we not see them in the fossil record? Fossilation is a rare event. Not every death results in a fossil which is a good thing as we would soon run out of room and the animals that eat the dead would soon die out.
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No, Jon, I recognise that fine. I do know what the Bible says. I have read it and I have pondered these things.
What you fail to recognise is that the Bible was not written to be read in a vacuum. It was written to be read within the context of the Real World. A world that contains physical evidence that has to be accounted for. That is why we reject any reading of passages such as Joshua 10 that would place the Earth at the centre of the Solar System with the sun going round it, for example.
You keep quoting screeds and screeds of Scripture over and over again, but not a single verse of Scripture that you have quoted contains any instructions whatsoever on how to account for that evidence.
You insist that we must make Scripture our supreme authority over science. But you have not given a shred of instruction on how to make Scripture our supreme authority over science.
For example, when we encounter evidence such as zircon crystals that contain far more lead than could possibly have got there in just six thousand years, what are we to do with them? Or when we encounter evidence such as the 200,000 or more endogenous retrovirus sequences in both human and chimp DNA where all but about eighty of them show up in exactly the same places, what are we to do with them?
Must we ignore these things altogether? If so, on what basis? The instruction to reject the evidence of our eyes and ears as your final, most essential command is from Nineteen Eighty Four by George Orwell, not the Bible.
Or must we reinterpret the evidence? If so, you do need to understand that even if you reject methodological naturalism and allow for the possibility of miracles, there are still constraints that your reinterpretation has to meet. That’s why I keep talking about the rules that we have to follow. The rules aren’t just “secular science” or “man’s fallible wisdom”; they are the basic rules and principles of accurate and honest measurement, and of accurate and honest reporting and interpretation of evidence.
These are things that the Bible itself demands, Jon. The Bible has far more to say about the need for honest and accuracy than about either the age of the Earth or evolution. I would be more than happy to consider evidence-based arguments for a young Earth or non-evolution, but only if they stick to these particular rules. Because flouting the rules, dismissing them as “pedanticism” or “overthinking” or “pettiness”, or otherwise demanding that they be watered down to accommodate your doctrine, is not making Scripture your final authority over science; it is lying.
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Dear Ron,
well good for you, believe whatever you wish.
But please don’t tell me that evolution is an undeniable fact, because there are many intelligent people who beg to differ.
Evolution is categorically NOT an undeniable fact by any stretch of the imagination. It may be within your worldview, but after more than fifty years of evaluating all the evidence, I have come to the conclusion that evolution does not and has not ever occurred; all that we ever see is NATURAL SELECTION. That’s it. No evolution, just a minor change within a species from Natural Selection, is all we ever see.
The claims that evolution has occurred are big on hype, and always totally lacking in empirical evidence, unless of course the evidence is that NATURAL SELECTION has taken place.
The ability for Natural Selection to occur, is a brilliant design feature, that God put into all genomes so that creatures could adapt to varying environmental niches, variable ecosystems, but that AIN’T Evolution!
Actually, NO Ron, that is the belief, the philosophy that you believe is true within your worldview, but the FACT that all life on Earth has a COMMON DESIGNER, is a far more accurate and logical reason why there are similarities.
Evolution from the LUCA is a myth, but you are welcome to swallow it and think it’s real. As I said, having a common Designer fits the evidence far better than the LUCA mythology.
Ah actually, NO Ron, that is completely false.
All animals are what God created, plain and simple.
Haven’t you heard of the many LIVING FOSSILS that abound with more being discovered all the time?
Haven’t you heard of the living fossils such as the Gingko trees, Crocodiles, Horseshoe Crabs, Coelacanth Fish, Tuatara Lizards, Lingula Lamp Shells and Neopilina Molluscs haven’t changed in at least a hundred million years. WHY?
Do you have a sound explanation as to why, the evolution myth claims that everything else has completely changed, but the above organisms are pretty well identical to their fossils dated at 100 million years or more?
God Bless,
jon
Dear Bill,
well isn’t that just ever so convenient!
Yes under normal conditions, I would agree that fossilisation does not happen every day, however the enormous quantities of finely detailed, exceptionally preserved fossils found all over the Earth in sedimentary strata, is yet further evidence of the catastrophic Global Flood of Noah’s day.
Rapid burial in sediment moving within fast flowing water is what laid down the massive numbers of fossils we have in museums and collections from all over the Earth.
But there are ZERO INTERMEDIATE FORMS between one species and a different one that the myth states came from it!
God Bless,
jon
Your answer once again demonstrates how much the worldview guides our interpretations of what we see around us.
You seem to be strongly committed to one model or frame of interpretation (YEC) and your brains interpret all the observations through that frame.
Those disagreeing with your YEC interpretations have another model or frame of interpretation in their head, which leads to differing interpretations and conclusions about the same observations, be it what the biblical scriptures tell or what the study of the creation by science tells.
That puts much weight on our worldview and the frame of interpretation we have. Although we tend to be blind to why we have our worldview, it would be good to think why our worldviews differ and what makes one worldview better or more truthful than the others?
One part of this pondering is to think how do we separate ‘acceptable’ facts from those that we do not trust? What would make us change our interpretations? If nothing would, that hints that we are not truly interested about truth.
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This we know, every living thing, like every thing that ever lived and had evolved descendants, is in an intermediate form to whatever evolves (if anything) from its germline.
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Dear Kai,
thanks for your thoughts, and yes, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said.
A person’s worldview very much affects how thoughts, reasoning’s, evidence, the Bible, indeed everything are interpreted.
If a person has been indoctrinated into deep time and evolution since they were five years old, then it’s no surprise that they see deep time and evolution as real, as fact, set in concrete etc…
If they go to university and obtain qualifications such as doctorates and degrees in a discipline that further reinforces deep time and evolution, then I completely understand the difficulty they face when someone such as myself, on the other side of the planet, states that they trust the Holy Bible, and have thoroughly researched the claims made by evolution and found them severely wanting, i.e., they just don’t stack up. There is a lot of equivocation describing Natural Selection that is real and observable and then just saying ‘voila’, that is evolution in action, which it clearly isn’t.
Of course to the evolution faithful, who have been indoctrinated all their lives into the evolution worldview, they really can’t see the flaws, the equivocation, the lack of any cogent mechanism to CREATE completely novel information that codes for the new structures as the assumed ascension from single cell to mankind occurred.
Absolutely, and that is the difficulty here, though I see that depending upon a persons worldview, the difficulty will be seen as with those who have the differing worldview.
The other matter is that it appears that on this website, science is elevated above the Holy Bible as the final arbiter; I see that tendency as a grave error.
God Bless,
jon
Dear Apistos,
excepting that evolution is a myth.
Natural Selection is real, but it can only ever select from existing information.
A single cell has a lot less heritable information that a human being.
In all of the ever ascending iterations of evolution from single cell to human being, where did the new heritable information come from?
God Bless,
jon
Mutation. This we know.