'Deep Time' and 'Evolution' allegedly 'falsified' by 'Rigorous' Empirical Research

[Burrawang]

@Bill_II

@Burrawang

It was a supernatural event controlled by God.

And there we have the real answer. If everything is a miracle then there can’t be any problems with what you see in creation. Of course that makes God into a trickster who planted fake evidence to cover up the miracles.

Gee Whiz Bill,
do you ever have the wrong end of the stick!

Firstly God is most definitely NOT a trickster. Where and why you think that, only serves to demonstrate your absolute commitment to the ‘deep time’, ‘evolution’ mythology that you clearly hold in higher esteem that the straightforward Word of the LORD God, the Holy Bible.

The Holy Bible informs us in very clear and precise words that because of the evil being perpetrated by mankind, our Loving LORD God was sorry He had made the Earth and mankind to the point that He was going to utterly destroy all life. But He didn’t did He?

He saw that Noah was a God fearing righteous man, and because the LORD God is infinitely Just, He made provision to save Noah and his extended family and representatives of all the animals in breeding pairs mostly.

Thus, to use your logic, do you also have an issue with the LORD God bringing ALL the animals to Noah that were going to be saved on the ark to repopulate the Earth after the catastrophic Global Flood?

Do you truly believe that when Jesus walked on the water, and when He commanded the storm to cease, and when He fed 5,000 and 4,000 people respectively, it was all done by ‘natural’ means?

Of course the LORD God uses HIS supernatural AUTHORITY over the CREATION when He wishes to do so!
When He judged the entire world with a GLOBAL FLOOD, it was not due to natural causes, it was due to the LORD God carrying out what He said to Noah He would carry out. It is really so easy to understand.

Why do you not understand what is so very clear, and has been clear to Christians for about two thousand years and Jewish people for much longer?

@Bill_II

@Burrawang

The aquatic and marine life would have survived in sufficient numbers to repopulate the Earth.

Except, if the flood was salty the fresh water life would have all died or if it was fresh water all of the marine life would die. You can’t have you cake and eat it too.

Again, what you clearly appear to misunderstand here is that fish have a tolerance built in for both types of water and various fresh/salt ratios in between the current salt concentration of the oceans and fresh water. The other salient point that perhaps you have missed is that fresh water typically sits on top of salt water because fresh water is less dense than salt water. I have no doubt that many fish would have perished, but as the LORD God was in control as He is right now, there obviously were enough of the species He wished to survive to breed up to the massive fish stocks that are being decimated these days by industrial scale fishing around the world.

@Bill_II

@Burrawang

The insects would have had sufficient numbers hitching a ride on the massive log and vegetation rafts

So had did earthworms or any of the other myriads of subterranean life make it onto a raft.

Unfortunately, it appears here that you don’t fully appreciate the size of the rafts that I suggest some of which would have been vast and had standing trees and soil with earthworms etc.. in them. Also, nothing precludes the LORD God from protecting whatever He wished, to come through the Global Flood to replenish the ecosystems upon the face of the Earth.

After all, as the Creator can raise the dead, give sight to those blind from birth, turn water into wine, create fish and bread out of nothing, speak galaxies into existence etc., etc., I don’t think it such a problem that He may well have protected whatever He wished to protect, including the ark with its precious cargo that He personally brought to Adam to board the ark to repopulate the Earth AFTER the Global Flood had abated.

God Bless,
jon

[Roy (Roy (Listener twice correct))]

@Jay313

Note: I should also add that having 12 sons in a row is like flipping heads 12 times in a row. That’s 1 in 4096. No shade against Jacob. It’s possible. But add on top the 50-50 likelihood that all 12 sons also lived to adulthood in the ancient world. That’s flipping another 12 heads in a row. The odds against flipping 144 (12x12) heads in a row?

That is remarkably close to the Planck interval.

Unfortunately, it’s the wrong calculation. It should be the odds against flipping 24 (12+12) heads in a row. This becomes obvious if you look at the probability of having 1 son that survives.

[Roy (Roy (Listener twice correct))]

@Burrawang

@Roy

@St.Roymond

So? Get out your calculator and do the math. Assuming twelve wives per man and eight children surviving to reproduce, you’re still almost two orders of magnitude short of the number given.

YECs tend not to do maths, even if they know how. It’s hard to retain a claim in the face of arithmetic.

Dear Roy,
if what you claim is true, …

You’re confirming it’s true by not doing any maths.

@Burrawang

… then where are all the billions of human remains, where are the artefacts from the eons of time that modern man allegedly evolved in.

Here.

Humans have had a major impact on the environment. This has been particularly intense in the last millennium but has been noticeable since the development of food production and the associated higher population densities in the last 10,000 years. The use of fire and over-exploitation of large mammals has also been recognized as having an effect on the world’s ecology, going back perhaps 100,000 years or more. Here we report on an earlier anthropogenic environmental change. The use of stone tools, which dates back over 2.5 million years, and the subsequent evolution of a technologically-dependent lineage required the exploitation of very large quantities of rock. However, measures of the impact of hominin stone exploitation are rare and inherently difficult. The Messak Settafet, a sandstone massif in the Central Sahara (Libya), is littered with Pleistocene stone tools on an unprecedented scale and is, in effect, a man-made landscape. Surveys showed that parts of the Messak Settafet have as much as 75 lithics per square metre and that this fractured debris is a dominant element of the environment.

If you really want to refute my claim that YECs don’t do maths, calculate what the rate of post-flood Saharan stone tool production was.

@Burrawang

They don’t exist, because the Global Flood erased all evidence of buildings, and all human remains from the face of the Earth.

I suggest you read the article at:

https://creation.com/en/articles/fossils-of-pre-flood-artifacts

and the article at:

https://creation.com/en/articles/where-are-all-the-people

Wow, those are bad.

Tell me this:

If the flood was, as you say, so fierce and powerful that it completely erased all remains of humans and human civilisation from existence, why didn’t it completely erase all remains of animals and animal behaviour as well?

Halley and Doyle didn’t have an answer. Do you?

P.S. I’ve just remembered your appalling comments about the IDF in Gaza. Don’t expect any tolerance or leniency.

P.P.S. I’ve just seen you cite Bergman’s attempt to associate evolution with Nazism. You deserve no consideration at all.

[Roy (Roy (Listener twice correct))]

@adamjedgar

@Burrawang

@Roy

@St.Roymond

So? Get out your calculator and do the math. Assuming twelve wives per man and eight children surviving to reproduce, you’re still almost two orders of magnitude short of the number given.

YECs tend not to do maths, even if they know how. It’s hard to retain a claim in the face of arithmetic.

[omitted]

Ill add to that Jon, note that St Roymond CLAIMS the maths is out by an order of magnitude of 2 …and yet the maths actually is that the percentage birthrate to acheive the biblical numbers is only a little over 2.5% (average of 6-8 per family).

As I said, YECs tend not to do maths.

Providing a number isn’t doing maths.

Show your work.

[Burrawang]

@St.Roymond

SO if animal death is evil, the sacrificial system was evil.

Dear Roy,
what you appear to be oblivious to here, is that the sacrificial system was put in place to make temporary atonement for the sin of mankind that started when Adam sinned against God and brought death into the creation for the very first time. The sacrificial system to make temporary atonement remained until Jesus gave Himself as the permanent sacrifice to atone for the many sins of humanity.

@St.Roymond

if animal death is evil, then God did evil.

Roy, apologies but you must understand that God can do whatsoever He chooses to do, whenever He so chooses to do it, as He made EVERYTHING that has been made, thus your reasoning here is fairly off kilter.

@St.Roymond

we have ruins that are 7k years old and more.

You may believe that, but I have far too high a regard for the Holy Bible to put the musings, assumptions and speculations of mere mankind. The Holy Bible is faithful and true and gives us the real timeline of history, thus no, the 7k date is obviously in error, but it is clear that you place man’s unverifiable speculations and materialistic philosophies ahead of the Holy Bible.

@St.Roymond

requiring God be not just deceptive but evil!

What unmitigated nonsense!
The very first death/s as far as I can ascertain that is documented in the HOLY BIBLE is when God provided the naked and ashamed Adam and Eve with animal skin/s to cover their nakedness that they had become aware of when disobeying the command of the LORD God.

@St.Roymond

something like 600k offspring in three generations from one man.

More utter fallacy!
The Earth’s present population is entirely consistent with starting with 8 adults about 4,500 years ago.
If the billions of years nonsense were actually true, then the entire Earth’s land masses would be massively populated. If the first humans lived over a million years ago where are all the trillions of people who should either be alive, or whose buried remains, potentially fossilized, would be found in vast graveyards scattered around the world?

The Bible is trustworthy and true and the present population of the Earth is completely consistent with the history of events recorded in Genesis.

But let’s do the very simple maths and to be extremely generous instead of the actual 8 people how about we just go with 1 male and 1 female as our starting point, 4,500 years ago.
The first couple have children and those children marry and have children and so on. If we also take the VERY CONSERVATIVE rate of population doubling every 150 years instead of the present reality that it doubles in less than every 50 years, thus we are way more than accounting for disasters, wars, famines, epidemics etc. that would only have a relatively small effect anyway, and nowhere near the actual present rate that is more than three times what the calculation below has the population doubling period at 150 years.

Thus, after 150 years there will be 4 people,
after another 150 years there will be 8 people,
after another 150 years there will be 16 people,
after another 150 years there will be 32 people,
after another 150 years there will be 64 people,
after another 150 years there will be 128 people,
after another 150 years there will be 256 people,
after another 150 years there will be 512 people,
after another 150 years there will be 1,024 people,
after another 150 years there will be 2,048 people,
after another 150 years there will be 4,096 people,
after another 150 years there will be 8,192 people,
after another 150 years there will be 16,384 people,
after another 150 years there will be 32,768 people,
after another 150 years there will be 65,536 people,
after another 150 years there will be 131,072 people,
after another 150 years there will be 262,144 people,
after another 150 years there will be 524,288 people,
after another 150 years there will be 1,048,576 people,
after another 150 years there will be 2,097,152 people,
after another 150 years there will be 14,194,304 people,
after another 150 years there will be 8,388,608 people,
after another 150 years there will be 16,777,216 people,
after another 150 years there will be 33,554,432 people,
after another 150 years there will be 67,108,864 people,
after another 150 years there will be 134,217,728 people,
after another 150 years there will be 268,435,456 people,
after another 150 years there will be 536,870,912 people,
after another 150 years there will be 1,073,741,824 people,
after another 150 years there will be 12,147,483,648 people,
after another 150 years there will be 4,294,967,296 people,
after another 150 years there will be 8,589,934,592 people,

In the simple doubling of the Worlds entire population from 2 people to 4, to 8 to 16 etc… after only 32 doublings, which is only 4,800 years, the worlds population is about 8.5 billion people.
If we start from the actual 8 people that the Holy Bible informs us were on board the ark, then in that same 4,800 years the Earth’s population would be over 17 billion, so we have been very generous and certainly more than accounted for the deaths in plagues, wars, illness, famines, floods, etc.. etc… etc… .

In other words the HOLY BIBLE is 100% absolutely Trustworthy and True and completely in alignment and accuracy of how we have the Earth’s present population of over 8 billion people today, (26th September 2025), from the starting point of Noah and his three sons and all their spouses somewhere over about 4,500 years ago!

However if we adopt the deep time, evolutionary mythology as being real, which is a mistake for a myriad of cogent reasons, then the obvious question MUST be asked:
WHERE ARE ALL THE TRILLIONS OF HUMAN BEINGS, BOTH LIVING AND THE REMAINS OF THE DECEASED???
They should be extremely common on every continent if the ‘deep time’ evolution myth were real, but it clearly isn’t, it is one of the greatest hoaxes of all time, deceiving children at school, university and in the community. Do the maths and see for yourself, if you don’t believe me, and be as conservative as you want, the numbers don’t lie. If you work with the present day rate, which as an adherent to uniformitarian philosophy, you should, then the numbers are astronomical, septillion or possibly even much greater. Yet what we find is completely consistent with the population bottleneck at Noah’s Global Flood that also had the genetic bottleneck effect of drastically reducing the size of the gene pool of Earth’s population that resulted in lifespans shortening drastically the further in time we get away from Adam and Eves perfect genomes.

So for me, the straightforward Truth as set out so clearly in the Holy Bible, is in every aspect that I have checked, always completely consistent with what we see in the world today.

@St.Roymond

@Burrawang

‘deep time’

Was originally derived from the scriptures.

It is always informative that you say this same thing over and over, but do not provide the evidence. So precisely where is this found in the Holy Bible? Books? Chapters? Verses?

@St.Roymond

@Burrawang

natural Selection that is real, but can only ever select from EXISTING genetic information within a population as the explanation as to how evolution happens, which is clearly nonsensical. It is like saying that you own a shop and in every transaction you lose money, and then claim you are making a profit

Sorry, but new genetic information occurs all the time. Since there is no scripture to back your claim, we should believe what God’s Creation is telling us.

Examples, evidence of the billions of instances where this has happened? Not one or two dubious and contested examples please!

@St.Roymond

@Burrawang

Human remains can only ever be at most, around about 6,000 years o

That’s neither from the Bible nor from science.

So what exactly do you believe?

@St.Roymond

@Burrawang

I will always Trust the Holy Bible over mere human attempts to understand the creation.

But you rely on a human tradition to interpret the Bible, though you refuse to recognize it.

Well so you keep saying, over and over again, but I completely disagree with that very strange analysis.
So, what tradition/s are you referring to?
You make these bald categorical assertions, but you don’t back them up with Biblical text, which to me at least, makes your claims ring hollow.

God Bless,
jon

[Paraleptopecten (Timothy Campbell)]

@Burrawang

The copious volumes of very deep sedimentary rock strata all over the planet, that predominantly have sharp clean well defined boundaries between each strata layer of sediment, are stark testament to rapid deposition in a single event. There aren’t many examples of bioturbation, or erosion, or animal disturbance between the thousands of layers that in places go down continuously for over seven miles!

Sharp boundaries can come from other causes–a “rapid” (i.e., over months to decades, depending on typical deposition rates.

Also, there’s a problem with bioturbation in a flood geology scenario–it should only be present at the bottom, not in occasional layers throughout.the geologic column the way they actually are.

@Burrawang

The order of the fossils is simply the order of burial.

Then why can one trace sea levels going up and down and up and down and up and down and … based dO18 levels, sediment grain size, and preferred environments of similar living taxa?

@Burrawang

The aquatic and marine life would have survived in sufficient numbers to repopulate the Earth.

Not while getting buried by meters of sediment per day, fried by radiation at levels lethal for all life, boiled by the energy of rapid plate tectonics, etc., etc.

@Burrawang

Again, what you clearly appear to misunderstand here is that fish have a tolerance built in for both types of water and various fresh/salt ratios in between the current salt concentration of the oceans and fresh water.

Most of them can only tolerate one or the other.

@Burrawang

The other salient point that perhaps you have missed is that fresh water typically sits on top of salt water because fresh water is less dense than salt water.

Not while there are megatsunamis going though the layers.

[Roy (Roy (Listener twice correct))]

@Burrawang

But let’s do the very simple maths and to be extremely generous instead of the actual 8 people how about we just go with 1 male and 1 female as our starting point, 4,500 years ago.
The first couple have children and those children marry and have children and so on. If we also take the VERY CONSERVATIVE rate of population doubling every 150 years instead of the present reality that it doubles in less than every 50 years, thus we are way more than accounting for disasters, wars, famines, epidemics etc. that would only have a relatively small effect anyway, and nowhere near the actual present rate that is more than three times what the calculation below has the population doubling period at 150 years.

Thus, after 150 years there will be 4 people,

So the world population when the Tower of Babel was built and tribes were scattered across the world was… 3 (or 12).

@Burrawang

after another 150 years there will be 8 people,
after another 150 years there will be 16 people,

So the entire world population when Abraham was born was… 10 (or 44).

@Burrawang

after another 150 years there will be 32 people,

So the entire world population when Jacob and his four ladies had 13 children, one of whom was kidnapped and taken to Egypt was… 32 (or 128).

@Burrawang

after another 150 years there will be 64 people,
after another 150 years there will be 128 people,

So the entire world population when Moses led his people out of Egypt was… 104 (or 416).

I could go on, but I think the point is made.

Such attempts to model a constant growth rate of population to match Biblical history never work because they always lead to ridiculously low population sizes during e.g. the Exodus - population sizes that are not only insanely low regarding historical events but also insanely low regarding Biblical populations as well. Nor can they be rescued by having a faster population growth rate at the beginning, because that then leads to either populations of trillions or more at present, or the flood having occurred after Jesus’s time.

Their only use is for pointing out how little YEC advocates think about the consequences of the ridiculous simplistic ‘arguments’ they put forward.

@Burrawang

In other words the HOLY BIBLE is 100% absolutely Trustworthy and True and completely in alignment and accuracy of how we have the Earth’s present population of over 8 billion people today, (26th September 2025), from the starting point of Noah and his three sons and all their spouses somewhere over about 4,500 years ago!

Codswallop. Your numbers contradict the Bible’s population figures. Either the Bible is hopelessly wrong, or your population growth figures are hopelessly wrong, or both.

@Burrawang

However if we adopt the deep time, evolutionary mythology as being real, which is a mistake for a myriad of cogent reasons, then the obvious question MUST be asked:
WHERE ARE ALL THE TRILLIONS OF HUMAN BEINGS, BOTH LIVING AND THE REMAINS OF THE DECEASED???

The actual obvious question to ask is: what “trillions” of human beings?

Current estimates give the total number of humans that have ever lived as being about 120 billion. You’re asking for something no-one claims existed - except for YECs who have neither done any maths or looked anything up.

No-one needs to answer questions founded on innumeracy and ignorance.

@Burrawang

They should be extremely common on every continent if the ‘deep time’ evolution myth were real, but it clearly isn’t, it is one of the greatest hoaxes of all time, deceiving children at school, university and in the community. Do the maths and see for yourself, if you don’t believe me, and be as conservative as you want, the numbers don’t lie. If you work with the present day rate, which as an adherent to uniformitarian philosophy, you should,…

Bollocks. The present day rate has been bolstered by medical discoveries and improved hygiene practices. There is no justification whatsoever for using any constant growth rate, let alone the current one.

@Burrawang

then the numbers are astronomical, septillion or possibly even much greater.

Bovine faeces. You haven’t done the calculation (even though it takes less time to do than to type the results), you’re just spouting random large numbers.

For the record, constant growth from 8 people in 2348BC at the current world annual population growth rate of about 1% would lead to a current population of about 6e19, which is nowhere near a septillion (1e24 or 1e42).

@Burrawang

So for me, the straightforward Truth as set out so clearly in the Holy Bible, is in every aspect that I have checked, always completely consistent with what we see in the world today.

Then explain how the great Pyramid was built when according to your population growth numbers the entire world population at the time was less than 100.

(If you respond to this post but don’t answer this question, I’ll either ignore you, laugh at you or point out your cowardice).

[rsewell (All Truth is God's Truth)]

@Burrawang

In the simple doubling of the Worlds entire population from 2 people to 4, to 8 to 16 etc… after only 32 doublings, which is only 4,800 years, the worlds population is about 8.5 billion people.

A population of rabbits can double every month. 4,800 years works out to 57,600 months, so basically enough rabbits to collapse to a black hole.

Populations grow. Populations stay in equilibrium. Populations shrink, and go extinct.

The population 4,800 years ago was some tens of millions of people, not eight. Egypt alone accounted for about a million and a half - it takes more than a village to raise a pyramid.

The YEC timeline is hopelessly contradicted by the historical and present population of the Earth. That is a matter of facts, not presuppositions.

[Burrawang]

@Paraleptopecten

@Burrawang

The copious volumes of very deep sedimentary rock strata all over the planet, that predominantly have sharp clean well defined boundaries between each strata layer of sediment, are stark testament to rapid deposition in a single event. There aren’t many examples of bioturbation, or erosion, or animal disturbance between the thousands of layers that in places go down continuously for over seven miles!

Sharp boundaries can come from other causes–a “rapid” (i.e., over months to decades, depending on typical deposition rates.

Also, there’s a problem with bioturbation in a flood geology scenario–it should only be present at the bottom, not in occasional layers throughout.the geologic column the way they actually are.

Hi Tim,
thanks for your thoughts.

Yes, it is indeed difficult to know what the conditions were like during the Global Flood, but it is very clear to me at least that we don’t see sedimentary strata being laid down anywhere these days at the massively sheer scales and depths, entrapping vegetation, such as various pine tree species that has turned to anthracite, and oil and gas also entrapped between the layers and to depths of 7 miles or about 12 kilometres. The lateral extents of the sedimentary strata make it abundantly clear that the deposition was from no ordinary event that we see on Earth at present, it was an extraordinary event indeed.

The sheer volume of sharply delineated strata, across the globe, in both vertical and horizontal extents, speaks boldly of an event that is consistent with the description of the Global Flood of Noah’s day about 4,500 years ago. If you disagree, so be it, that is your right, but please don’t expect me to swallow that there are other ways that the sharply delineated strata were laid down at the enormous scales they are.
Clutching at straws is perhaps a more appropriate description for that one.
Also, with regard to quite small discrete places where bioturbation is evident, there are any number of possible reasons, such as for instance, the ebb and flow of places that were briefly underwater, then out again, then under again, etc, during the inundatory stage and even the recessive stage too. Or there may well be another mechanism that as yet no one has discovered, or may never discover, who knows, certainly not me, after all these events happened thousands of years ago, thus any theories can be dreamed up, but it is difficult to validate or falsify them.

You know as well as I though that bioturbation is not evident as being present in the vast majority of deposited sedimentary strata across the globe, nor is it evident in the vertical strata that go down miles into the Earth, in the majority of places. Bioturbation is the exception, it is certainly not the rule!

@Paraleptopecten

@Burrawang

The order of the fossils is simply the order of burial.

Then why can one trace sea levels going up and down and up and down and up and down and … based dO18 levels, sediment grain size, and preferred environments of similar living taxa?

Well firstly that is your interpretation of data, that is , the way you view the data, has you seeing eons of time elapsing; however, as in the previous comment, it may well be that the sea level, went up and down many times, before areas were totally inundated, for any number of reasons, including tidal forces, tectonic plate movement, volcanism, who knows, as no one but Noah and his family on the ark was there.
Variations and fluctuations in dO18 levels in ice cores for example doesn’t mean that eons of time has elapsed, again there are any number of cogent explanations that don’t involve Milankovitch cycles.

@Paraleptopecten

@Burrawang

The aquatic and marine life would have survived in sufficient numbers to repopulate the Earth.

Not while getting buried by meters of sediment per day, fried by radiation at levels lethal for all life, boiled by the energy of rapid plate tectonics, etc., etc.

But how in the world can you make such unknowable statements as you have. We weren’t there, and I certainly do not subscribe to crystal balls. You have absolutely zero idea of what was occurring across the surface and underneath the waters covering the entire planet!
If you claim you do, then it is clear that the worldview you have been indoctrinated into has a solid grasp of your intellect. I certainly do not claim to know what the massively variable conditions were like over every square mile of ocean. But what I do know is that just like the Apostles, just like Jesus, just like the early Church Fathers, I accept the account of the Creation of everything and the account of the Global Flood in the Holy Bible as real history. I don’t subscribe to the mealy doublespeak contorted explanations that sneakily try to add deep time and the lie of evolution into the Holy Bible.

Out in the mid ocean regions away from shallow areas and away from tectonic plate boundaries, the water may well have been both clean and stratified into fresh on top and salt underneath. In those deep water areas, even tsunamis would pass by virtually if not completely unnoticed. So before you make grandiose claims about what suits your worldview, please be honest enough to admit that you really do not know, just as everyone else does not either, except for the LORD God, Who was there, and actually does know what occurred, and we are informed by His Word to us in the Holy Scriptures.

@Paraleptopecten

@Burrawang

Again, what you clearly appear to misunderstand here is that fish have a tolerance built in for both types of water and various fresh/salt ratios in between the current salt concentration of the oceans and fresh water.

Most of them can only tolerate one or the other.

Well that’s strange as I know of many species that can tolerate both fresh and salt water, but also as I said previously, the fresh sits as a solid layer on top of the salt water, and in deep ocean areas, if the temperatures of each body were quite different, then there would be very little mixing of the salt and fresh water bodies, even though one is on top of the other, the salt water comprising the lower layer being of greater density than the fresh water.

@Paraleptopecten

@Burrawang

The other salient point that perhaps you have missed is that fresh water typically sits on top of salt water because fresh water is less dense than salt water.

Not while there are megatsunamis going though the layers.

Tim as I stated earlier here, we don’t know what the conditions were like over the entire surface of the planet that was all water at the height of the Global Flood. But, in mid oceanic areas, tsunamis had virtually no power whatsoever, just a ripple going by in deep water. Therefore it is not at all difficult for me to imagine that the LORD God kept the ark safe and at the same time He may well have ensured that sufficient creatures not represented on the ark, would receive due care and guidance from God so their species would repopulate thew Earth.

God Bless,
jon

[Bill_II]

@Burrawang

Where and why you think that, only serves to demonstrate your absolute commitment to the ‘deep time’, ‘evolution’ mythology that you clearly hold in higher esteem that the straightforward Word of the LORD God, the Holy Bible.

I don’t think that, you do when you insist the earth is only 6,000 years old when creation says it is not. The only reason creation would be lying to us is if God is being deceptive if you are correct. I don’t hold science in higher esteem than the Bible, but I admit that my human, fallible interpretation of the Bible can be corrected by what God’s creation tells us.

@Burrawang

Again, what you clearly appear to misunderstand here is that fish have a tolerance built in for both types of water and various fresh/salt ratios in between the current salt concentration of the oceans and fresh water.

Some do, but most don’t. Ever try to maintain a marine aquarium?

@Burrawang

The other salient point that perhaps you have missed is that fresh water typically sits on top of salt water because fresh water is less dense than salt water.

This during a chaotic global flood that was scouring solid rock to produce sediment? Again you are trying to have your cake and eat it too, which is classic YEC. Just propose whatever you think will get you out of a tight spot even if it doesn’t fit with other things you say.

@Burrawang

Unfortunately, it appears here that you don’t fully appreciate the size of the rafts that I suggest some of which would have been vast and had standing trees and soil with earthworms etc.

Nice science fiction, but any raft with soil trapped on it would have all the soil washed out during this year long flood.

@Burrawang

After all, as the Creator can raise the dead, give sight to those blind from birth, turn water into wine, create fish and bread out of nothing, speak galaxies into existence etc., etc.,

Just come out and admit that God was performing multiple miracles just to support your interpretation of what the scriptures say.

[Roy (Roy (Listener twice correct))]

@Burrawang

@Paraleptopecten

@Burrawang

Again, what you clearly appear to misunderstand here is that fish have a tolerance built in for both types of water and various fresh/salt ratios in between the current salt concentration of the oceans and fresh water.

Most of them can only tolerate one or the other.

Well that’s strange as I know of many species that can tolerate both fresh and salt water, but also as I said previously, the fresh sits as a solid layer on top of the salt water, and in deep ocean areas, if the temperatures of each body were quite different, then there would be very little mixing of the salt and fresh water bodies, even though one is on top of the other, the salt water comprising the lower layer being of greater density than the fresh water.

So you claim the flood was both violent enough to completely obliterate all traces of pre-flood human civilization, and also calm enough that there was little or no mixing of the fresh rainwater with the saline seas.

[rsewell (All Truth is God's Truth)]

@Burrawang

If you disagree, so be it, that is your right, but please don’t expect me to swallow that there are other ways that the sharply delineated strata were laid down at the enormous scales they are.

It is you who disagrees with geologists, despite your demonstrating no competence in the field.

@Burrawang

with regard to quite small discrete places where bioturbation is evident, there are any number of possible reasons, such as for instance, the ebb and flow of places that were briefly underwater, then out again, then under again, etc, during the inundatory stage and even the recessive stage too.

Not much of a deadly flood, is it, if multiple strata exhibit biotubation in short order.

@Burrawang

Or there may well be another mechanism that as yet no one has discovered, or may never discover,

Or it did not happen like you imagine.

@Burrawang

Bioturbation is the exception, it is certainly not the rule!

You are misrepresenting the situation, but that is nothing new.

@Burrawang

Variations and fluctuations in dO18 levels in ice cores for example doesn’t mean that eons of time has elapsed, again there are any number of cogent explanations that don’t involve Milankovitch cycles.

Actually, there is not one good cogent explanation that does not involve eons of elapsed time. Nor is any required, because we know from dozens of lines of incontrovertible evidence that the Earth is ancient, so the variations of oxygen and other stable isotopes fit right in.

@Burrawang

I certainly do not claim to know what the massively variable conditions were like over every square mile of ocean.

It does get difficult to keep your story straight when you are making a ton of stuff up. So are you saying there wasn’t accelerated nuclear decay, nor any rapid plate tectonics?

[Burrawang]

@Roy

So the world population when the Tower of Babel was built and tribes were scattered across the world was… 3 (or 12).

Dear Roy,
I suggest that you read the Holy Bible before you make any more comments such as this one.

Your timing is way out and also the example I gave is overly generous towards being very conservative. If the real duration to double the Earth’s population was only twenty, or thirty or forty years instead of 150, then the hypothetical example would be even more striking than it already is.

@Roy

So the entire world population when Jacob and his four ladies had 13 children, one of whom was kidnapped and taken to Egypt was… 32 (or 128).

Once again, I suggest that you read your Bible! And get your facts straight.

@Roy

I could go on, but I think the point is made

No your point is most definitely not made at all.
You fail to recognise the point I was simply making, that is that even with ridiculously long doubling times, the present population of the Earth is easily reached within the time period since the Global Flood.
I would expect that the period elapsed for the Earth’s population to double would be much more in alignment with the doubling period at present that is around the forty to fifty mark. The mathematical demonstration was to show as simply as possible how the planets population can ever so easily be reached in the time period since the Global Flood to the present.
I apologise here, but the very fact you don’t appear to have understood that salient reality, speaks volumes…

@Roy

Such attempts to model a constant growth rate of population to match Biblical history never work because they always lead to ridiculously low population sizes

Apologies but that is nonsensical once again, it appears you don’t understand the simple principle here. Even after being overly generous, you still fail to comprehend the reality. There is little point in continuing this discussion, as I say up and you hear down.
The only person here putting forth "ridiculous simplistic ‘arguments’: is yourself.

@Roy

Codswallop. Your numbers contradict the Bible’s population figures. Either the Bible is hopelessly wrong, or your population growth figures are hopelessly wrong, or both.

Codswallop? Such kindness!
Why are you unable to see the example I gave to demonstrate that the timeframe provided in the Holy Bible is more than enough to have the current global population, even with unrealistically generous doubling periods that I took out to 150 years, that is way longer than it would have been in reality!

@Roy

No-one needs to answer questions founded on innumeracy and ignorance.

Again more assertion, heavy on opinion, with zero evidence.
120 billion will be the population alive on Earth in about 100 years, yet you want me to swallow the inane belief that deep time and evolution are real and the total number of people that have ever lived is in this mythical fantasy only 120 billion. Plainly nuts!

@Roy

Bollocks. The present day rate has been bolstered by medical discoveries and improved hygiene practices. There is no justification whatsoever for using any constant growth rate, let alone the current one.

Bollocks? Such dignity!
The reality in actual fact is that medical advances and hygiene have contributed barely anything at all to rates of population increase. I’ve done the research and the maths, and i was surprised at that fact, but it is the reality. And a fairly constant linear doubling rate post the Global Flood is quite acceptable in line with the present rate of population growth, in other words , it has been fairly consistent throughout history!

@Roy

Bovine faeces. You haven’t done the calculation (even though it takes less time to do than to type the results), you’re just spouting random large numbers.

For the record, constant growth from 8 people in 2348BC at the current world annual population growth rate of about 1% would lead to a current population of about 6e19, which is nowhere near a septillion (1e24 or 1e42).

Bovine faeces? Such grace!
So where in the world does 2348BC come from?

@Roy

@Burrawang

So for me, the straightforward Truth as set out so clearly in the Holy Bible, is in every aspect that I have checked, always completely consistent with what we see in the world today.

Then explain how the great Pyramid was built when according to your population growth numbers the entire world population at the time was less than 100.

(If you respond to this post but don’t answer this question, I’ll either ignore you, laugh at you or point out your cowardice).

That’s very Christian of you!
All people on Earth are descended from Noah. The worldview that you subscribe to is ever so off kilter that unfortunately it doesn’t appear that you can see the wood for the trees.
All the pyramids were built by descendants of Noah.
Clearly it was late enough for the population to be sufficient to carry out the construction.
What you are missing is that the calculation I demonstrated used overly generous doubling period of 150 years, but when you insert a much more likely figure of 40 years to double the population. At that much more realistic rate, only 800 years after the Global Flood there would have been considerably more than 8 million people on Earth, more than enough to build all the pyramids over the successive lives of the pharaohs.

God Bless,
jon

[rsewell (All Truth is God's Truth)]

@Burrawang

I’ve done the research and the maths, and i was surprised at that fact, but it is the reality. And a fairly constant linear doubling rate post the Global Flood is quite acceptable in line with the present rate of population growth, in other words , it has been fairly consistent throughout history!

What research?

Population growth in ancient times was anemic. There was always some famine, drought, pestilence, or military slaughter. Do not think so? Read the Old Testament.

World population, comparison of different historical sources

[St.Roymond]

@Terry_Sampson

Evolutionary language and some biologists were indeed used to rationalize

Rationalization does not imply causation.

@Burrawang

Why do you not understand what is so very clear, and has been clear to Christians for about two thousand years and Jewish people for much longer?

That’s a false generalization. YEC has not been held until recently.
“Deep time” came first from the scriptures. Many Christians have treated Genesis 1-2 as allegory. Many Christians have recognized that genealogies are not – as the Bible itself demonstrates – useful for calculating the age of anything much at all.
You’ve bought into a human tradition that relies on a set of lies about the scriptures, built around a simplistic and materialistic view of the text.

@Burrawang

FLOOD, it was not due to natural causes,

So why all the time wasted on “flood geology”?

@Burrawang

Again, what you clearly appear to misunderstand here is that fish have a tolerance built in for both types of water and various fresh/salt ratios in between the current salt concentration of the oceans and fresh water

Some species do. Most species don’t.

@Burrawang

it appears here that you don’t fully appreciate the size of the rafts that I suggest some of which would have been vast and had standing trees and soil with earthworms etc.. in them.

More science fiction. It’s been shown (1) that such hypothetical rafts are incredibly unlikely and (2) would not survive when the water table was salty.

@Burrawang

After all, as the Creator can raise the dead, give sight to those blind from birth, turn water into wine, create fish and bread out of nothing, speak galaxies into existence etc., etc., I don’t think it such a problem that He may well have protected whatever He wished to protect

Right there is all that YEC should say, instead of making up science fiction that just makes the Bible and Christians look foolish.

@Burrawang

@St.Roymond

SO if animal death is evil, the sacrificial system was evil.

Dear Roy,
what you appear to be oblivious to here, is that the sacrificial system was put in place to make temporary atonement for the sin of mankind

Not oblivious at all. But if animal death was evil before the Fall, it remains evil. Since it remains evil, then God commanded Israel to do evil to atone for sin. You can pile up words about what the sacrificial system was for, but that does not affect the fact that evil remains evil.
Either animal death was not evil before the Fall, or God commanded evil.

@Burrawang

@St.Roymond

if animal death is evil, then God did evil.

Roy, apologies but you must understand that God can do whatsoever He chooses to do, whenever He so chooses to do it,

In other words, your defense is that God is capable of doing evil.
That is not Yahweh, it is the Adversary. Yahweh cannot do evil – to claim He can is blasphemy.

@Burrawang

musings, assumptions and speculations of mere mankind.

That’s exactly what YEC is – it’s a human system that builds on human traditions, then imposes that on the scriptures.

@Burrawang

it is clear that you place man’s unverifiable speculations and materialistic philosophies ahead of the Holy Bible.

Show me “man’s unverifiable speculations and materialistic philosophies” in the text and I will concede this. When it comes to theology my “philosophy” is the text, the whole text, in its grammatical-historical context. And I place that above the human philosophy of YEC.

@Burrawang

The very first death/s as far as I can ascertain that is documented in the HOLY BIBLE is when God provided the naked and ashamed Adam and Eve with animal skin/s to cover their nakedness

So animal death is not evil. If it was not evil when God did it, is was not evil before the Fall.

@Burrawang

@St.Roymond

something like 600k offspring in three generations from one man.

More utter fallacy!

You’re denying the text of scripture?

Who was it who brought up the issue with Moses’ family, specifically his grandfather and the huge multitude of offspring? Could you please post the details again to remind our two YECers here what the issue is?

@Burrawang

The Earth’s present population is entirely consistent with starting with 8 adults about 4,500 years ago.

Irrelevant to the issue; both moving the goalposts and muddying the waters – two fallacies at once.

@Burrawang

If the billions of years . . . were actually true, then the entire Earth’s land masses would be massively populated.

Wow – give this man an F in high school freshman biology and history. Disease and warfare are just two things that explain why the above isn’t true.
Besides which, “massively populated” in context refers to humans, so “billions of years” isn’t relevant anyway – more muddying the waters.

@Burrawang

The Bible is trustworthy and true

Exactly – which is why YEC is wrong.

@Burrawang

It is always informative that you say this same thing over and over, but do not provide the evidence. So precisely where is this found in the Holy Bible? Books? Chapters? Verses?

What’s informative is that I have posted what you ask for dozens of times, yet you pretend not to have seen it. But I’ll give a bit of a reminder: Genesis 1 and Daniel.

@Burrawang

@St.Roymond

Sorry, but new genetic information occurs all the time. Since there is no scripture to back your claim, we should believe what God’s Creation is telling us.

Examples, evidence of the billions of instances where this has happened? Not one or two dubious and contested examples please!

What a selective memory. Examples, either dubious nor contested, have been posted here repeatedly. I’ve given two that I know of, while our scientists have furnished quite a few more.
BTW, “billions”? Introducing an unwarranted adjective falls into the fallacy of muddying the waters.

@Burrawang

@St.Roymond

@Burrawang

Human remains can only ever be at most, around about 6,000 years o

That’s neither from the Bible nor from science.

So what exactly do you believe?

With Genesis, I believe that we cannot know how long humans have been around. But my beliefs don’t matter, what matters is what the text actually affirms. And in terms of science, we have homo sapiens remains from at least 12k years back as dated by archaeology, if I remember my anthropology class correctly – which I can accept because it does not clash with Genesis or any other material from the scriptures.

@Burrawang

So, what tradition/s are you referring to?

That Adam and Eve were real, that the Flood was global, that the genealogies can be used to calculate time, all of which rely on the tradition that the opening of Genesis should be read as history.

@Burrawang

You make these bald categorical assertions, but you don’t back them up with Biblical text

Of course not – why would I expect to back up traditions of men from scripture?! That’s ludicrous.

[Roy (Roy (Listener twice correct))]

@Burrawang

@Roy

So the world population when the Tower of Babel was built and tribes were scattered across the world was… 3 (or 12).

Dear Roy,
I suggest that you read the Holy Bible before you make any more comments such as this one.

Your timing is way out and also the example I gave is overly generous towards being very conservative. If the real duration to double the Earth’s population was only twenty, or thirty or forty years instead of 150, then the hypothetical example would be even more striking than it already is.

Really? Ussher and Answers in Genesis both have the tower being built about a century after the flood - when your growth rate gives a population of about a dozen. Even changing the doubling time to 20 years only leads to a population of 256 (and requires every person in the population to have four healthy children by the age of 22, which is insane).

When do you claim the tower was built?

@Burrawang

I would expect that the period elapsed for the Earth’s population to double would be much more in alignment with the doubling period at present that is around the forty to fifty mark. The mathematical demonstration was to show as simply as possible how the planets population can ever so easily be reached in the time period since the Global Flood to the present.
I apologise here, but the very fact you don’t appear to have understood that salient reality, speaks volumes…

I understand it.

Unlike you, I also understand that using constant population growth rates is complete nonsense, and that doing so leads to either insufficient population soon after the flood, or too much population later.

@Burrawang

@Roy

Such attempts to model a constant growth rate of population to match Biblical history never work because they always lead to ridiculously low population sizes

Apologies but that is nonsensical once again, it appears you don’t understand the simple principle here. Even after being overly generous, you still fail to comprehend the reality. There is little point in continuing this discussion, as I say up and you hear down.
The only person here putting forth "ridiculous simplistic ‘arguments’: is yourself.

@Burrawang

@Roy

No-one needs to answer questions founded on innumeracy and ignorance.

Again more assertion, heavy on opinion, with zero evidence.
120 billion will be the population alive on Earth in about 100 years, yet you want me to swallow the inane belief that deep time and evolution are real and the total number of people that have ever lived is in this mythical fantasy only 120 billion. Plainly nuts!

Educate yourself.

@Burrawang

The reality in actual fact is that medical advances and hygiene have contributed barely anything at all to rates of population increase. I’ve done the research and the maths, and i was surprised at that fact, but it is the reality.

Citation needed.

@Burrawang

And a fairly constant linear doubling rate post the Global Flood is quite acceptable in line with the present rate of population growth, in other words , it has been fairly consistent throughout history!

Citation needed.

@Burrawang

@Roy

Bovine faeces. You haven’t done the calculation (even though it takes less time to do than to type the results), you’re just spouting random large numbers.

For the record, constant growth from 8 people in 2348BC at the current world annual population growth rate of about 1% would lead to a current population of about 6e19, which is nowhere near a septillion (1e24 or 1e42).

Bovine faeces? Such grace!
So where in the world does 2348BC come from?

From Answers in Genesis. Creation.com, whose articles you linked to, gives an even more recent date of 2304BC.

You didn’t do the calculation. You just made up some numbers.

@Burrawang

@Roy

@Burrawang

So for me, the straightforward Truth as set out so clearly in the Holy Bible, is in every aspect that I have checked, always completely consistent with what we see in the world today.

Then explain how the great Pyramid was built when according to your population growth numbers the entire world population at the time was less than 100.

(If you respond to this post but don’t answer this question, I’ll either ignore you, laugh at you or point out your cowardice).

That’s very Christian of you!
All people on Earth are descended from Noah. The worldview that you subscribe to is ever so off kilter that unfortunately it doesn’t appear that you can see the wood for the trees.
All the pyramids were built by descendants of Noah.
Clearly it was late enough for the population to be sufficient to carry out the construction.
What you are missing is that the calculation I demonstrated used overly generous doubling period of 150 years, but when you insert a much more likely figure of 40 years to double the population. At that much more realistic rate, only 800 years after the Global Flood there would have been considerably more than 8 million people on Earth, more than enough to build all the pyramids over the successive lives of the pharaohs.

So your solution is to pretend that the pyramids were built several centuries later than even your own sources say that they were.

Both AiG and creation.com say that Khufu was a contemporary of Abraham, who visited Egypt circa 1875BC.

That’s less than 500 years after their dates for the flood, not the 800 years you want to use. Even with your supposed ‘much more likely’ (but really much less likely) population growth rate that only gives a global population of approximately 29,000 people^[1]. Not 8 million. Not even close.

I’m done here^[2].

---

1. 8 * 2 ^ ((2348 - 1875) / 40), where 2348 is the date of the flood, 1875 is the date of the pyramid being built, 40 is the doubling time in years and 8 is the original population. ↩︎

2. Apart from laughing. ↩︎

[St.Roymond]

@Roy

Codswallop. Your numbers contradict the Bible’s population figures. Either the Bible is hopelessly wrong, or your population growth figures are hopelessly wrong, or both.

YEC requires keeping information in separate boxes; comparing one set with another is almost always disastrous for its scheme.

@Roy

Bollocks. The present day rate has been bolstered by medical discoveries and improved hygiene practices. There is no justification whatsoever for using any constant growth rate, let alone the current one.

I read a book about the growth of Christianity in the Roman empire and one of the problems the author brought up was that population growth in the empire can’t be stated clearly except from evidence gathered after the fact, for a whole number of reasons including that the rates were not the same across the empire! In some areas infanticide of girl babies was the norm, in others infanticide was only of clearly deformed babies, and so on, which makes the whole effort a kludge.

@Roy

@Burrawang

So for me, the straightforward Truth as set out so clearly in the Holy Bible, is in every aspect that I have checked, always completely consistent with what we see in the world today.

Then explain how the great Pyramid was built when according to your population growth numbers the entire world population at the time was less than 100.

Aliens!!!

@rsewell

Populations shrink, and go extinct.

This reminds me of an article read for an anthropology class, that spoke of how in a lot of tribal and feudal warfare all enemy males capable of reproduction were slaughtered and all the women were taken as wives, concubines, or sex slaves to the point where each man in a tribe would have four or more wives – and yet there weren’t four or more times as many children. So the population growth rate, which one would expect to depend on the number of fecund females, was thus skewed significantly by warfare; effectively the fertility rate was reduced even though the available women were just as fertile as before.

@Burrawang

it is very clear to me at least that we don’t see sedimentary strata being laid down anywhere these days at the massively sheer scales and depths, entrapping vegetation, such as various pine tree species that has turned to anthracite, and oil and gas also entrapped between the layers and to depths of 7 miles or about 12 kilometres.

A big reason is that there are now bacteria and other creatures that feed on decaying cellulose, on the surface or buried, while during the periods when coal built up that wasn’t the case.

@Burrawang

The sheer volume of sharply delineated strata, across the globe, in both vertical and horizontal extents, speaks boldly of an event

Actually it speaks of multiple events – a single event can’t produce the patterns that are observed, e.g. igneous rock on top of sand dunes on top of igneous rock on top of savanna on top of igneous rock on top of water-deposited sedimentary rock (from an outcropping our volcanology class examined somewhere in central Oregon – my field notebooks are in storage so I don’t have the exact location at hand). That series shows at least five events!

@Burrawang

@Paraleptopecten

Then why can one trace sea levels going up and down and up and down and up and down and … based dO18 levels, sediment grain size, and preferred environments of similar living taxa?

Well firstly that is your interpretation of data, that is , the way you view the data, has you seeing eons of time elapsing

Sea level changes can be tracked by erosional features that take many thousands of year to form. At one place on the Oregon coast there is a set of four such erosional terraces, indicating a few tens of thousands of years, and those are the ones that are exposed to observation; ground radar indicates there are two or more that have been buried by sediment – which itself is instructive in that the coastline had to be calm and steady enough for all that sediment to build up. At another place there is a cliff that has three beach layers in it interspersed among deposits of clay, which show continuous rise of the land (or fall of the sea) over tens of thousands of years.
Interpretation of these is just a matter of common sense: strata are laid down from bottom to top, and what is observed in the strata thus took place over however long it took to establish each distinct zone. In the case of beaches, to get less than thousands of years it is necessary to deposit sand in amounts that cannot be accounted for unless they were suddenly dumped from somewhere else yet there is no sign of such an event.

@Burrawang

But how in the world can you make such unknowable statements as you have. We weren’t there, and I certainly do not subscribe to crystal balls. You have absolutely zero idea of what was occurring across the surface and underneath the waters covering the entire planet!

And yet YEC invents fabulous science fiction that is either wild imagination or crystal balls!

@Burrawang

Therefore it is not at all difficult for me to imagine that the LORD God kept the ark safe

Then why not just stick to scripture and forget all the pseudoscientific verbiage by just saying the above?!? Church Fathers were humble enough to say they didn’t know how the Ark survived, just that God kept it safe (after all, if He shut the door, He could easily keep all the seams together).
Instead of wasting time inventing all the rationalizations, just declare that God is faithful and kept the Ark safe!

@Bill_II

I don’t think that, you do when you insist the earth is only 6,000 years old when creation says it is not. The only reason creation would be lying to us is if God is being deceptive if you are correct. I don’t hold science in higher esteem than the Bible, but I admit that my human, fallible interpretation of the Bible can be corrected by what God’s creation tells us.

Well said.

@Bill_II

This during a chaotic global flood that was scouring solid rock to produce sediment?

Good point. We know the rates at which various sediment types can be produced, and one year isn’t sufficient to yield even a small fraction of the amounts observed.

[St.Roymond]

@Burrawang

I suggest that you read the Holy Bible before you make any more comments such as this one.

The Bible doesn’t tell how arithmetic works. Maybe you should read it before making up a silly chart.

@Burrawang

And get your facts straight.

He got the "facts’ straight out of your chart.

@Burrawang

Why are you unable to see the example I gave to demonstrate that the timeframe provided in the Holy Bible is more than enough to have the current global population

Because the numbers don’t work even for the events in the Bible.
This would be amusing if not so tragic – someone uses the Bible to show where you’re being ridiculous, yet you protest!

@Burrawang

120 billion will be the population alive on Earth in about 100 years

According to . . . absolutely no one.

@Burrawang

The reality in actual fact is that medical advances and hygiene have contributed barely anything at all to rates of population increase.

Bollocks (fun word). Can’t wait to see how you get corrected on this one.

[Terry_Sampson]

@Burrawang

The reality in actual fact is that medical advances and hygiene have contributed barely anything at all to rates of population increase. I’ve done the research and the maths, and i was surprised at that fact, but it is the reality. And a fairly constant linear doubling rate post the Global Flood is quite acceptable in line with the present rate of population growth, in other words , it has been fairly consistent throughout history!

• Research where? In Young Earth Creationist comic books?
• Here’s a No-brainer response:

That claim is flatly at odds with the demographic record.

What actually happened (in brief):

• In every region, mortality fell first—mostly from big drops in infectious-disease deaths—then fertility fell later. The interim gap (low deaths while births were still high) is what produced rapid population growth. (Our World in Data)
• The largest early drivers of the mortality fall were public-health and hygiene improvements (clean water, sanitation) and then vaccination/antibiotics—not just rising incomes. In early-20th-century U.S. cities, introducing filtration and chlorination was responsible for ~½ of the total mortality decline, ~¾ of the infant-mortality decline, and ~⅔ of child-mortality decline. (NBER)
• Globally, life expectancy rose from about 32 years in 1900 to 70–73 years today, a change overwhelmingly linked to progress against infectious disease via public health, medicine, and improved living conditions. (Our World in Data)

Broader context: Classic work in demography (e.g., Preston) and UN syntheses describe a “mortality revolution” driven by the diffusion of health and medical technologies, which reduced deaths independently of income to a significant degree. This is the textbook mechanism behind the demographic transition. (JSTOR)

Bottom line: Hygiene and medical advances didn’t “barely” affect population increase—they were central. They reduced deaths (especially among infants and children), which raised population growth rates until fertility later adjusted downward. (Our World in Data)

[Terry_Sampson]

“Toto, I’ve a feeling we’re not in Kansas anymore.”