Death before the fall

[beaglelady]

@william1

ou are correct but I think that Balaam was actually throwing his voice to be the voice of the donkey so it all works out…

Did a donkey talk or not?

No, a donkey didn’t really talk. That was a funny touch that makes the point that an ass had more spiritual insight than Balaam. But if Balaam is no longer a donkey but a ventriloquist, who is Balaam trying to fool?

[william1 (william)]

Thank you and you are correct about both points.

I am incredibly frustrated by a family member whom I need in my life who won’t vaccinate which brought me over here so I sent this person some arguments.

I monitor Covid deaths and Christian after Christian dying for no reason except … stupidity?

This is a calamity and Christians with common sense but also education have to start reeling in these poor unfortunates because if this continues with a quarter unvaccinated, it’s going to be shocking to the conscious. Covid is a horrible and scary death and nobody should go out that way, in fear. Thanks for understanding.

[beaglelady]

@william1

I sense this notion on here the people are seeking more respect from secular scholars and humans and that is never, ever coming because Christians do not truly engage in scientific inquiry.

You mean secular scholars aren’t human? What species are they?

[william1 (william)]

I means scholars and people in general who are not focused intently on Christian apologetics. Your basic college graduate from a decent university say…

[william1 (william)]

The Various Meanings of Concordism - Article - BioLogos

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@william1

If the idea is to strive for greater scientific understanding

Certainly not!

Why in the world would you think something like THAT?!?

This is not a science of religion thread or anything of the sort. This is a forum promoting the acceptance of evolution in the evangelical Christian community. (My particular interest is in exploring the impact on Christian theology from accepting evolution.) This thread is exploring the question of death before the fall, which makes it a theological inquiry because “the fall” is a theological notion with no place in science.

@william1

One thing I see over and over on here is that people begin a priori assuming the Bible is infallible.

Where? There is a vast spectrum between treating the Bible as inerrant or infallible and treating it as nothing but fiction. It is part of the definition of Christianity that the Bible is taken as authoritative but that is nothing like the claim that it is infallible. I personally don’t see how anything in human language can conceivably be infallible or inerrant.

@william1

but there’s no evidence that any of the patriarchs ever lived.

There is no objective scientific evidence that God exists. The vast majority of knowledge which human beings have are things for which they have no proof or evidence because proof and evidence is rare thing for a very small portion of the things they know. All that the lack of such proof and evidence means is that they have no reasonable basis for expecting other people to agree about such things. It certainly does not mean they are not true. It would be unreasonable to expect people to accept THAT because we have no more proof or evidence that they are not true. And expecting people to live their life only according to what they can prove is unreasonable to the point of being delusional.

@william1

So while you guys are trying to split hairs about Original Sin, you might want to fundamentally recognize that there is little to no evidence for anything in the Torah actually happening in real life where humans walk and eat and sleep and breathe.

Done. But irrelevant.

@william1

I am glad there are actually Christians who get vaccinated. I can’t get my mother to.

My mother won’t get vaccinated either. And guess what… she isn’t a Christian at all.

@william1

Let’s face it. Evangelicals believe in talking donkeys and pillars of salt and Joshua stopping the sun and fire from heaven and on and on.

I am an evangelical and I don’t believe in any of the first three. Fire from heaven happens all the time, and the sun stops in the sky of Mercury too. LOL

@william1

And I am sorry, any Christian physicist or historian who says that Balaam was a real donkey and it talked, I mean, everyone is laughing at you at that point.

Balaam may have had a conversation with His donkey. I have seen people have a conversation with a mailbox. Are you laughing at me for claiming to see such a thing, or laughing at the guy talking to a donkey or a mail box? I don’t see any reason to laugh at either.

@william1

I sense this notion on here the people are seeking more respect from secular scholars

Really? Who do get that from? Many of us are just scientists who have become evangelical Christians or visa versa. You got a problem with that?

@william1

So while I get the feeling that some sneer at the YAC, their belief system seems to be far more coherent than one where reality sort of fades in and out between miracles.

You mean YEC, young earth creationism – those who call God a liar in everything He tells us from every bit of His creation… those who suggest that I am evil because I believe what God says rather than their half baked abuse of the Bible to attack science? To say I sneer at them would be putting it mildly.

[KJTurner]

@william1

I am not trying to be mean

You don’t come across as mean; you come across as rather ignorant of historic Christianity, and even evangelical Christianity. Try to judge a group by its best, rather than worst, proponents.

[william1 (william)]

More than willing to put my knowledge up against yours anytime you want…

[william1 (william)]

I am not going to reply to these individually because I was addressing an over-arching theme and honestly, half of your responses are Greek to me. I have no idea what you believe or don’t believe. I never called anyone a liar so I think your beef is with someone else. The Chicago Statement is incompatible with science if that’s the starting point. My interest is in helping uneducated Christians avoid harrowing deaths and this seems to be a site where influential people might be. Death by Covid is a horrible harrowing death. May both our parents be vaccinated.
Goddess bless.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@william1

half of your responses are Greek to me

Well your response is certainly incoherent to me. I don’t know where you are getting an accusation against you of calling someone a liar. I never heard of any young earth creationist (YEC) who would argue that the Bible is only fiction. So I cannot imagine you claiming to be one.

I don’t know why you are harping on about some Chicago statement… (of Biblical inerrancy?). WHO here has advocated Biblical inerrancy?

I think YOUR beef is with someone else.

@william1

My interest is in helping uneducated Christians avoid harrowing deaths

Then what are you doing HERE? Are you suggesting we are uneducated Christians. What is your education? I have two masters degrees, how about you?

@william1

a site where influential people might be.

Influential with WHO? Creationists? No. antivaxers? I don’t think so.

Frankly if this is what your initial post is about then it is rather off-topic and you should have started a different thread. Why didn’t you post in one of the threads about covid vaccines. There are many of them.

Could Antiviral Pills Change the Course of the Coronavirus Pandemic?

Here’s a very short video (8 minutes) from PBS/NOVA. It explains how Covid-19 antiviral pills from Pfizer and Merck and Ridgeback work, how effective they are, and how they might change the course of the pandemic. Could Antiviral Pills Change the Course of the Coronavirus Pandemic? (Don’t know how they stack up against ivermectin!!)

Is John Campbell a good source of covid information?

There has been a lot of conjecture about Omicron, but the verdict is still out. It may be milder, but is so much more transmissible that it will still result in a lot of deaths, We will know more after everyone gets together at Christmas. As for ivermectin, there is a possibility it may have a bit of a positive effect, but studies are still out on that too, but should be coming out soon. I think some countries like India that used it extensively, looking for something low cost and available, …

Early Data on Omicron

This is from factcheck.org, and was published on 12/22/2021 Early Data on Omicron

Dr. Francis Collins reflects on career at NIH, COVID response effort

Dr. Francis Collins reflects on his career at the NIH Judy Woodruff of the PBS Newshour speaks to Dr. Francis Collins, who is retiring from his role as director of the National Institutes of Health after more than a decade, about his career. He warned that the U.S. may face a million COVID cases a day this winter if it doesn’t take precautions. Before he became NIH director, he was known for his work on genetics and helped map the finished sequence of the human genome.

[Vinnie]

@mitchellmckain

Then what are you doing HERE? Are you suggesting we are uneducated Christians. What is your education? I have two masters degrees, how about you?

No, he was venting at evangelicalism in frustration. But he did use this topic as a springboard to do so. This issue ultimately is a topic of discussion for concordant readings of scripture. Doesn’t seem to matters at all for those who believe in divine accommodation.

Vinnie

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

@william1

But aside from vaccination, it is difficult for me to perceive any sort of true scientific method on here applied by anyone

Then you are not reading sufficiently or for comprehension. There are many here constantly applying scientific method. My humble self especially. I’ve been criticized by an otherwise excellently intellectually sound moderator for citing Kierkegaard months ago.

[beaglelady]

@william1

I sense this notion on here the people are seeking more respect from secular scholars and humans and that is never, ever coming because Christians do not truly engage in scientific inquiry. Instead, they try to find things to cram into their worldview so as not to upset it.

I call BS!
Please look up the following people:

John Polkinghorne KBE
Francis Collins
Ken Miller
Brother Guy J. Consolmagno, SJ
Denis Lamoureux
Karl Giberson
Katharine Hayhoe
The Rev. Pamela Conrad
Arthur Peacocke
Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

@beaglelady

@william1

I sense this notion on here the people are seeking more respect from secular scholars and humans and that is never, ever coming because Christians do not truly engage in scientific inquiry. Instead, they try to find things to cram into their worldview so as not to upset it.

I call BS!
Please look up the following people:

John Polkinghorne KBE
Francis Collins
Ken Miller
Brother Guy J. Consolmagno, SJ
Denis Lamoureux
Karl Giberson
Katharine Hayhoe
The Rev. Pamela Conrad
Arthur Peacocke
Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori

None is as intellectually honest as Kierkegaard until proven otherwise. Sir John for a start. Sat at his feet as I have. Peacocke is fine post-hoc. That’s the trouble. There is no warrant for moving beyond pre-hoc. But desire met in Paul’s Jesus.

[william1 (william)]

I just said that I am new and that I have re-evaluated related to that. The Young World and the Old World creation posts seem mostly contrived but on other topics I am impressed.

Anyone who mentions Kierkegaard has like me, actually struggled with all of this and not just accepted these that seem mythological as true. You are the only other Christian 'kept me that I have either seen reference my hero, Soren.

Regards

[william1 (william)]

Seemingly mythological writings…

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@william1

Anyone who mentions Kierkegaard has like me, actually struggled with all of this and not just accepted these that seem mythological as true.

I am always happy to mention Kierkegaard, though I am more a fan of Albert Camus… bit more readable. I am frankly a scientist, existentialist, and Christian, in that order. Science is my first filter on reality but I have never seen anything in science to support naturalism (equating science with reality itself). Nevertheless what is compatible with science is part of my definition of rationality. Existentialism is the second filter and the one which actually made theism accessible to me.

But while my specialty in science is physics, I was raised on psychology. And one of the things psychology has to teach us is about how memory works – kind of like mythology frankly.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

Welcome. I’m glad to start out on your good side, speaking of S.K.:

Why There is No Proof of God

In the same vein: Proof would negate love: If God bowled us over with evidence, it would negate love. Imagine if God reveals Himself to the point that everyone “has to” believe in Him (if it would be possible). The problem with such a scenario is that there would be no love relationship with Him, it would be forced relationship. The philosopher Soren Kierkegaard imagined a king who loved a humble maiden. He had all the power to force her to come to his palace, marry him and be crowned the q…

(There is objective evidence, however, discussed elsewhere in various places. Here’s one of the later ones.)

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

I read about Kierkegaard’s engagement to Regine Olsen. It is was a difficult story to read. Most time I just wanted to yell at him to get over himself. It is only in an afterthought that I realized how precarious so many things in life can be, and I simply cannot rule out the possibility that the marriage could have been a complete disaster for both of them. Love is so absolute that saying no to love seems must always be a mistake. But reality intrudes with many scary possibilities which we do not know how we can avoid. And is not the worst of possibilities one where love, no matter how real it is, turns sour to hatred and despair. It is one of the things on which we theists often look to God for some hope for guidance.