Death before the fall

No, a donkey didn’t really talk. That was a funny touch that makes the point that an ass had more spiritual insight than Balaam. But if Balaam is no longer a donkey but a ventriloquist, who is Balaam trying to fool?

Thank you and you are correct about both points.

I am incredibly frustrated by a family member whom I need in my life who won’t vaccinate which brought me over here so I sent this person some arguments.

I monitor Covid deaths and Christian after Christian dying for no reason except … stupidity?

This is a calamity and Christians with common sense but also education have to start reeling in these poor unfortunates because if this continues with a quarter unvaccinated, it’s going to be shocking to the conscious. Covid is a horrible and scary death and nobody should go out that way, in fear. Thanks for understanding.

You mean secular scholars aren’t human? What species are they?

I means scholars and people in general who are not focused intently on Christian apologetics. Your basic college graduate from a decent university say…

Certainly not!

Why in the world would you think something like THAT?!?

This is not a science of religion thread or anything of the sort. This is a forum promoting the acceptance of evolution in the evangelical Christian community. (My particular interest is in exploring the impact on Christian theology from accepting evolution.) This thread is exploring the question of death before the fall, which makes it a theological inquiry because “the fall” is a theological notion with no place in science.

Where? There is a vast spectrum between treating the Bible as inerrant or infallible and treating it as nothing but fiction. It is part of the definition of Christianity that the Bible is taken as authoritative but that is nothing like the claim that it is infallible. I personally don’t see how anything in human language can conceivably be infallible or inerrant.

There is no objective scientific evidence that God exists. The vast majority of knowledge which human beings have are things for which they have no proof or evidence because proof and evidence is rare thing for a very small portion of the things they know. All that the lack of such proof and evidence means is that they have no reasonable basis for expecting other people to agree about such things. It certainly does not mean they are not true. It would be unreasonable to expect people to accept THAT because we have no more proof or evidence that they are not true. And expecting people to live their life only according to what they can prove is unreasonable to the point of being delusional.

Done. But irrelevant.

My mother won’t get vaccinated either. And guess what… she isn’t a Christian at all.

I am an evangelical and I don’t believe in any of the first three. Fire from heaven happens all the time, and the sun stops in the sky of Mercury too. LOL

Balaam may have had a conversation with His donkey. I have seen people have a conversation with a mailbox. Are you laughing at me for claiming to see such a thing, or laughing at the guy talking to a donkey or a mail box? I don’t see any reason to laugh at either.

Really? Who do get that from? Many of us are just scientists who have become evangelical Christians or visa versa. You got a problem with that?

You mean YEC, young earth creationism – those who call God a liar in everything He tells us from every bit of His creation… those who suggest that I am evil because I believe what God says rather than their half baked abuse of the Bible to attack science? To say I sneer at them would be putting it mildly.


You don’t come across as mean; you come across as rather ignorant of historic Christianity, and even evangelical Christianity. Try to judge a group by its best, rather than worst, proponents.


More than willing to put my knowledge up against yours anytime you want…

I am not going to reply to these individually because I was addressing an over-arching theme and honestly, half of your responses are Greek to me. I have no idea what you believe or don’t believe. I never called anyone a liar so I think your beef is with someone else. The Chicago Statement is incompatible with science if that’s the starting point. My interest is in helping uneducated Christians avoid harrowing deaths and this seems to be a site where influential people might be. Death by Covid is a horrible harrowing death. May both our parents be vaccinated.
Goddess bless.

Well your response is certainly incoherent to me. I don’t know where you are getting an accusation against you of calling someone a liar. I never heard of any young earth creationist (YEC) who would argue that the Bible is only fiction. So I cannot imagine you claiming to be one.

I don’t know why you are harping on about some Chicago statement… (of Biblical inerrancy?). WHO here has advocated Biblical inerrancy?

I think YOUR beef is with someone else.

Then what are you doing HERE? Are you suggesting we are uneducated Christians. What is your education? I have two masters degrees, how about you?

Influential with WHO? Creationists? No. antivaxers? I don’t think so.

Frankly if this is what your initial post is about then it is rather off-topic and you should have started a different thread. Why didn’t you post in one of the threads about covid vaccines. There are many of them.

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No, he was venting at evangelicalism in frustration. But he did use this topic as a springboard to do so. This issue ultimately is a topic of discussion for concordant readings of scripture. Doesn’t seem to matters at all for those who believe in divine accommodation.


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Then you are not reading sufficiently or for comprehension. There are many here constantly applying scientific method. My humble self especially. I’ve been criticized by an otherwise excellently intellectually sound moderator for citing Kierkegaard months ago.


I call BS!
Please look up the following people:

John Polkinghorne KBE
Francis Collins
Ken Miller
Brother Guy J. Consolmagno, SJ
Denis Lamoureux
Karl Giberson
Katharine Hayhoe
The Rev. Pamela Conrad
Arthur Peacocke
Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori


None is as intellectually honest as Kierkegaard until proven otherwise. Sir John for a start. Sat at his feet as I have. Peacocke is fine post-hoc. That’s the trouble. There is no warrant for moving beyond pre-hoc. But desire met in Paul’s Jesus.

I just said that I am new and that I have re-evaluated related to that. The Young World and the Old World creation posts seem mostly contrived but on other topics I am impressed.

Anyone who mentions Kierkegaard has like me, actually struggled with all of this and not just accepted these that seem mythological as true. You are the only other Christian 'kept me that I have either seen reference my hero, Soren.


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Seemingly mythological writings…

I am always happy to mention Kierkegaard, though I am more a fan of Albert Camus… bit more readable. I am frankly a scientist, existentialist, and Christian, in that order. Science is my first filter on reality but I have never seen anything in science to support naturalism (equating science with reality itself). Nevertheless what is compatible with science is part of my definition of rationality. Existentialism is the second filter and the one which actually made theism accessible to me.

But while my specialty in science is physics, I was raised on psychology. And one of the things psychology has to teach us is about how memory works – kind of like mythology frankly.

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Welcome. :slightly_smiling_face: I’m glad to start out on your good side, speaking of S.K.:

(There is objective evidence, however, discussed elsewhere in various places. Here’s one of the later ones.)

I read about Kierkegaard’s engagement to Regine Olsen. It is was a difficult story to read. Most time I just wanted to yell at him to get over himself. It is only in an afterthought that I realized how precarious so many things in life can be, and I simply cannot rule out the possibility that the marriage could have been a complete disaster for both of them. Love is so absolute that saying no to love seems must always be a mistake. But reality intrudes with many scary possibilities which we do not know how we can avoid. And is not the worst of possibilities one where love, no matter how real it is, turns sour to hatred and despair. It is one of the things on which we theists often look to God for some hope for guidance.

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