Dawkins' challenge about the "God Delusion": The Scientific American article

No Evolution is development from creation. It does not create from zero. Abiogenesis is still a pipe dream.

I think we are going in circles now. My concept of God has substance. From what I have read, yours does not. My relationship with God has substance. I do not think that you have one, or even believe one is possible. I am sorry but God, if He exists, must be more than some forlorn hope that you cling to like a shredding rag.

On the positive side I concur that there must be some sort of parameters built into the genetics of life but I refuse to leave god on the sidelines as a helpless spectator watching His creation fall apart or even form coherently. Such a god does not deserve my worship. Christ becomes an act of desperation, too late and insignificant.

Richard

Abiogenesis is universal from eternity, for all universes that make the grade. God is obviously a helpless spectator of the material but for incarnation and transcendence. Which makes the helplessness irrelevant. God is substance, the ultimate and only one. My relationship with God is the best possible one I can make up, which is a bit of a shredding rag yes. I’m glad yours is more… imperial.

My God’s humility is worthy of my worship.

So (say) you acknowledge that Moses and thousands & thousands of Israelites following him witnessed an anomalous string of plagues befall Egypt, up through & including a tsunami (or tidal bore) conspicuously timed so as to drown the pursuing Egyptian charioteers just after they had crossed the Red Sea?

Glad our sector of space is so secure, now that you’ve done such a number on all Heavenly Powers within range

I can’t acknowledge a foundation myth as any more than that. Apart from perhaps reflecting the yearning of God.

Forgive me, but your God is not real. If there is such a thing as a God delusion, you, my friend, epitomise it.

That would not be enough for me. Ghandi, Nelson Mandella? God? Surely God has to be all powerful, gracious and magnanimous rather than weak, ineffectual and pleading.

Richard

What were they?

Like Jesus on the cross you mean?

And being the ground of material and transcendent being isn’t powerful enough for you?

No one (human) has ever seen “Them” (John 1:18)

But “They” were saying something about all earth will be destroyed by “fire from heaven” (Rev 20:9) which will boil away earth’s oceans down to slagged continental crust (2 Peter 3:10)

I guess we get to hope it’s all allegorical & symbolic, if literal earth will be “Hosnian Prime’ed”

The most important part of the message is not what’s said, but the mere fact that anything was communicated at all

meaningful, intelligible, cogent, articulate, audio-visual messages (“Voices, Visions, Dreams”) from heaven to earth, from heavenly beings to earthlings

that’s the first thing to consider (generally, even if you can’t trust what was said, you can sure trust that something was said, if somebody talks to you, you don’t have to believe everything they say, but you might as well admit that there they are saying it, same same, communications from heaven don’t have to have been factual to have been actual)

Jesus was neither weak, ineffectual nor pleading. He was not even meek and mild after birth. Submitting to the cross was not showing weakness. The only slight faltering was in the garden of Gethsemone.

I think you have the wrong idea here.

Richard

On the cross, that’s what it looked and even sounded like. No omnipotence there.

I am sorry but you seem to misunderstand the strength involved in self sacrifice, nor the accepted meaning of the Crucifixion…

Richard

Not at all. You seem to misunderstand how weak, ineffectual and pleading being crucified would make anyone.

Father forgive them for they know not wat they do.

Is neither pleading, weak nor ineffectual.

It is finished

Should tell you what was really going on.

Richard

Why did you use a deliberate extract from my comment as a straw man?

Eloi, Eloi, lama sabbachthani!

It’s OK Erik.

It was the subject, not a straw man. I do not quote the whole because the system seems to delete it if I do.

Richard