“Curiouser and curiouser!”

Here’s the standard “pushback” you’ll see from NDE researchers / survivalist interpreters against each article—framed as the strongest objections, not as endorsements.

Pushback to Woerlee (Pam Reynolds “Could she hear?”)

1) Timing/chronology: the key details allegedly align with a period of deep anesthesia

Supporters argue that Reynolds’ most specific auditory/visual claims are reported as occurring during phases when she was:

  • deeply anesthetized and/or
  • in extreme physiological conditions (e.g., hypothermia / reduced circulation / later standstill),
    which (they argue) makes “ordinary hearing during awareness” an ad hoc rescue move unless Woerlee can pin the statements to a plausible awake window with tight perioperative timing.

2) Ear occlusion + BAEP stimulation: “hearing” isn’t just unlikely—it’s procedurally blocked

Woerlee’s line “clicks aren’t continuous, so sound could leak in” is met with:

  • ear inserts were designed to deliver stimuli and reduce ambient sound;
  • some protocols add masking noise in the contralateral ear (or both);
  • surgical draping, positioning, and OR ambient noise complicate “normal hearing” claims,
    so critics say Woerlee underestimates how aggressively the setup is meant to control the auditory channel—especially for fine-grained OR remarks.

3) Content specificity: reported details are “oddly exact” for groggy awareness

Survivalist-leaning writers emphasize that Reynolds’ descriptions include:

  • unusual tool descriptors (e.g., “like an electric toothbrush”) and
  • specific conversational fragments,
    and argue that anesthesia awareness usually yields confused, fragmentary recall, not a coherent narrative with seemingly apt technical correspondence (even if not perfectly technical).

4) Awareness under anesthesia is real—but it usually leaves a clinical footprint

Yes, anesthesia awareness exists; the pushback is: it’s typically associated with:

  • distress,
  • postoperative reporting consistent with awareness (pain, paralysis, panic),
  • sometimes clinical suspicion afterward.
    Critics say Woerlee relies on “it could have happened” without showing it did happen in her specific case.

5) “Disembodied hearing can’t work” is treated as a category mistake

Woerlee’s physics-flavored objection (sound waves / interaction) is often rejected on philosophical grounds:

  • NDErs don’t claim their “hearing” is ordinary acoustics; it’s more like direct knowing or perception-like experience.
    So critics argue he refutes a straw-man: he rules out one mechanistic model of nonphysical hearing, not the broader claim that consciousness could access information nonlocally.

6) The bigger complaint: selective debunking vs the best version of the case

Researchers sympathetic to NDEs often argue Woerlee engages the case largely through secondary reporting and interpretive reconstruction. They want:

  • operative records integrated with the narrative,
  • tighter source control (who said what, when),
  • and a careful separation of “what Reynolds said” from “what later authors inferred.”

Net pushback in one sentence: Woerlee’s account is accused of being possible but not demonstrated, while downplaying how the clinical setup and reported timing were designed to eliminate ordinary perception.


Pushback to Augustine (“Does paranormal perception occur?”)

1) “Absence of strong evidence” vs “evidence of absence”

The most common pushback: Augustine’s conclusion is said to overreach.

  • Survivalists agree the literature is messy,
  • but argue that weak corroboration is predictable in emergencies (no cameras; no controlled targets),
    so “we don’t have airtight cases” doesn’t entail “it doesn’t happen.”

2) He sets the evidential bar so high that no spontaneous human event could clear it

Critics argue Augustine implicitly demands near-lab-grade controls in real-world medical crises.
They claim his standard would dismiss:

  • many well-accepted historical claims,
  • lots of clinical phenomena first known through case reports,
    because the data environment isn’t built for tight verification.

3) He emphasizes errors and embellishment, but underweights “hits” and independent witnesses

Pushback here is methodological: skeptics highlight failure modes; survivalists highlight:

  • cases with contemporaneous corroboration,
  • third-party testimony,
  • or details allegedly unknown to the patient by normal means.
    They say Augustine spends more time on why any single case might fail than on the strongest subset that might survive.

4) Hearing-as-explanation can look like a universal solvent

Augustine leans heavily on “patients could have heard things.”
The pushback: even if hearing can explain some OR details, it doesn’t obviously explain claims involving:

  • visual spatial relations (object location, actions behind barriers),
  • distant events outside earshot,
  • or information reported as acquired while deeply unresponsive.
    Survivalists accuse “maybe they heard it” of becoming unfalsifiable.

5) Target experiments are still early / methodologically hard

On “why not decisive prospective tests?” critics respond:

  • hospitals are chaotic settings,
  • staff turnover and compliance are issues,
  • true cardiac arrest survivors who can later report anything are a small subset,
    so null or ambiguous results don’t settle the matter.

6) Alternative framework: the data are “signal + noise,” not “all noise”

Survivalist pushback often reframes the whole field:

  • memory distortion and folklore exist (noise),
  • but not all cases reduce to that,
    and the right question is whether a small remainder persists after discounting confounds.

Net pushback in one sentence: Augustine is accused of treating messy evidence as if it were disconfirming evidence, and of applying a verification standard that real-world resuscitation cases rarely can meet.


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Yes, personal experiences can be very influential to our worldview. Very few have a mind that is guided just by logical reasoning. Logical reasoning may be important in building or removing obstacles to believing something but otherwise, logical reasoning is not usually the path that leads to believing in a faith/worldview matter. Rather, we first believe or select something and after that, try to find rational justification to what we have already intuitively selected in our mind.

The crucial subjective experience may be a ‘miracle’ like sudden healing or disappearance of a cancer at the moment when someone prays healing. It can also be something that is not usually counted as a ‘miracle’ but otherwise convinces the person that God listened to my prayers and answered. It may also be ‘a touch of the invisible’. Whatever it is, I think that the ways how people get the saving faith and become followers of Christ are miracles - work of God within us.

Although subjective experiences may be important on a personal level, they cannot be transferred to other people like objective facts. My experience does not touch another person in the same way. For that reason, support for the existence or assumed will of God should not be based on subjective experiences. Biblical scriptures or the conclusions of logical reasoning are potentially more influential in discussions because they are transferable information.

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I am rather bored with people being dramatic with “we cannot trust our senses” like it’s a brand new insight whilst in reality it’s an overused slogan. Sure, we can’t see infrared and can easily misjudge distance or speed but generally speaking we can trust our senses when it comes to day to day living - is it really such a big deal for example, that I can’t sense every single molecule making up a table when I touch it? Should I go on thinking how deceived I am because of it?
So we can recognise our limits without being dramatic and there’s no need to throw perception under the bus and replace it with metaphysical guesswork.

That’s just wild. If a rope “often breaks,” the rational response is to test the rope, reinforce it, or get a better one - not something one can do with one’s senses.
What rope do you use for cliff climbing?

Thanks, but no thanks

Why is that a problem? And is it even true that we imagine everything in visual terms? What exactly is your “physical imagery” of justice, or laws of logic?
The way we imagine things is simply result of cognitive processes, that’s it - no need to go all existential over it.

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So what’s a sign in the heavens that erases the need for faith?

Also big time into ID.

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It seems most agree that hearing and vision, along with how inputs and physical pathways/ biology, do affect and feed into the conscious mind. Most also seem to agree that physical impairment and even biochemical perturbations like drugs can greatly affect memory and sense of self.

I do wonder what mechanisms people invoke that allows memory retention, stereo vision and hearing if the mind/consciousness of someone experiencing an NDE really receives that input from some mechanism ‘outside the body’. Do they propose there are some ‘non-local’ (QM speak) mechanisms that detect air pressure oscillations and translate them to sound qualia that a disembodied mind can process, or ones that take photons passing through a particular region of the room, reconstruct the image an eye would collect if it were located at the same location, and again translate that into vision qualia in the same disembodied mind? I think one needs to propose a great deal of heretofore unseen and unexpected phenomena, physics and novel mechanisms to grant perception and memory to a disembodied mind.

Aside: If we can accomplish distance vision and hearing like that, why do we retain physical eyes and ears? They seem superfluous if non-local perception is an alternative. I’ll grant that they are some who think ESP is real but even though that’s probably had more studies than NDEs, the demonstrations remain muddy.

  • I’m not in the condition that I would like to be in in order to discuss the issues you raise, however searching for a copy of Dr. Egnor’s book, the closest I can come to it appears to be: Book Summary with several Youtube videos.

[0:00] Dr. Michael Egnor - Is The Soul Real? Neurosurgeon Explores The Evidence (2025 Dallas Conference on Science & Faith)

"What is the soul, and is the soul immortal? I very strongly believe this is a question for neuroscience. Obviously there are theological answers and philosophical answers, but neuroscience also addresses these issues.

There are three questions I want to ask today about the human soul:

First: Does the soul exist as something separate from the brain?
Second: If it does exist, what is the soul?
Third: Is the soul immortal?

I very strongly believe this is a question for neuroscience. Again, there are theological answers and philosophical answers, but neuroscience also addresses these issues, and it does so in a fascinating way.

Does the soul exist as something separate from the brain?

I’d like to start with my own story. I started out as a materialist and an atheist as a young man. In medical school I fell in love with neuroanatomy and neurophysiology, because I thought that learning about the brain—learning all the detailed, beautiful neuroanatomy—would help me understand who I was and what it means to be a human being.

I trained in neurosurgery at the University of Miami and have been on faculty at Stony Brook since 1991. I’ve done about 7,000 brain operations, and I’ve learned a fair amount—not only academically, but in personal experience—about how the brain works and how the mind relates to the brain.

Over my career I saw a number of things that made me question the traditional materialist understanding of how the brain works.

The patients I’m going to describe are real people. I’ve changed their names, but they’re very real.

One young woman was born missing about two-thirds of her brain. When she was a baby, we scanned her and found this abnormality. We were rather pessimistic with her family about her chances of a normal life. She grew up completely normal. She was on the honor roll in high school. If you met her today, you’d say she’s a bright young lady—perfectly fine—missing two-thirds of her brain.

Another child, Joshua, was also born missing about two-thirds of his brain. An ethics committee recommended that he not be fed at birth because of his condition. We rescinded that order and fed him. He is now graduating from high school—perfectly normal—plays sports, and is a great kid.

Maggie, a brilliant young woman, was missing most of her cerebellum and part of the central regions of her brain. She has a master’s degree in English literature and is a published musician.

Nicholas, a boy with cerebral palsy, is missing both hemispheres of his brain and retains only his brain stem. He cannot speak or walk, but he is fully conscious. He laughs, cries, and is emotionally a normal person.

These cases raise a strange question that may not be so strange after all: Is the brain the organ of the mind?

The heart is the organ of circulation. The kidneys are the organ of urine production. But is the brain completely the organ of the mind? Clearly in some ways it is, but in other ways it may not be.

Wilder Penfield, a pioneering neurosurgeon, asked why there are no “intellectual seizures.” During seizures, people may have involuntary movements, sensations, emotions, or memories—but no one ever has a calculus seizure. No one has a seizure where they cannot stop doing long division. Penfield concluded that abstract reasoning does not originate from the brain.

He stimulated brains during awake surgeries and could evoke movement, sensation, emotion, and memory—but not abstract thought.

Split-brain research by Roger Sperry and others revealed similar mysteries. Even when the hemispheres are disconnected, patients function largely normally. Experiments by Justine Sergent and Yair Pinto suggested unified mental processing beyond what disconnected brain structures could explain.

Penfield also studied free will. When he stimulated patients’ brains and caused them to raise their arms, they could distinguish between movements he caused and movements they chose. In thousands of cases, no patient confused the two.

Benjamin Libet’s experiments suggested that brain activity precedes conscious decisions. However, he found that subjects could veto actions without new brain spikes—a phenomenon he described as “free won’t.”

Adrian Owen’s research on patients in persistent vegetative states showed that some could understand and respond to questions via brain imaging, suggesting consciousness may persist despite severe brain damage.

Near-death experiences (NDEs) offer further evidence. Some NDEs include veridical elements—information reportedly obtained during clinical death. The case of Pam Reynolds is frequently cited as an example.

Reports commonly describe a tunnel, deceased relatives, and profound experiences of light. Living persons are not reported at the end of the tunnel—only those who have died, sometimes even those whose deaths were unknown to the experiencer.

While brain injury can affect behavior—as in the case of Phineas Gage—this does not demonstrate that every aspect of mind originates from the brain.

Is the mind computation? No. Computation lacks “aboutness.” Thoughts are always about something; machines process symbols without intrinsic meaning.

Did the mind evolve? If natural selection operates only on physical matter, and if part of mind is non-physical, then the mind cannot be fully explained by evolutionary processes.

The most reasonable conclusion is that the brain governs movement, perception, memory, and emotion—but not intellect and will.

What is the soul? It animates us. It knows, loves, and gives life. It has no parts and no location. It is not bound by time.

Humans uniquely possess spiritual souls. Animals and plants have material souls; humans have spiritual ones.

Is the soul immortal? Death is disintegration of matter. But a spirit cannot disintegrate. Just as the number eight written on paper can burn, but the abstract number eight cannot cease to exist, so too the soul cannot die.

The spiritual soul has no off switch.

How can someone see during a near-death experience without eyes? Thomas Aquinas offered an analogy: life is like being inside a dimly lit church at night. When the candles go out (death), the rising sun illuminates everything from outside. We see by divine light.

The light reported in near-death experiences is, in this view, divine light—a different kind of seeing.

Thank you for listening." [29:55]

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Thanks for that Terry.

I think Egnor’s explanatory claim lacks lot, eg.

I’m not sure that the ‘divine light’ is the same as “viewing the room as if from a height above” or “hearing conversations others had” that are sometimes reported during an NDE.

They also seems to be some fuziness about what is doing the sensing. For panpsychists, ‘consciousness’ is thought to be a layer of reality under the material. But the personal conscious is highly dependent on the material level for perception. I don’t think ‘souls’ figure in quite the same way in panpsychism. Still, I don’t see how one manages viewing scenes from above or in different rooms than the body in panpsychism. The explanation seems underdeveloped and ad hoc. There is also ‘dualism’ but that is largely different thing and has the famous trouble of reconciling the connections between mind and body that we see. Aquinas et al’s notion of Hylomorphic Dualism seems to make mind and body interdependent which while perhaps better aligned with observation, does not suggest a means for remote viewing.

What I always wonder about near-death experiences is that they happen when the person is technically dead, but you can’t really know if a person is actually dead or just dreaming unless the brain has no activity at all. I am not saying the people don’t have near-death experiences just that they seem to be non-falsifiable since it seems that the only way you can know someone is actually dead is when their brain has no activity at all and starts decaying. Even very low consciousness is technically still consciousness.

IMO, near-death experiences do not happen when the person is, technically, dead; they happen when a person is near-death, which why they are called NDEs or Near-Death Experiences. Even Dr. Egnor, if I’m not mistaken, would agree.

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As I mentioned earlier, I’m not in a condition to engage the mechanism questions at the level you’re raising. I shared Egnor’s material as a resource, not as a fully developed model I’m prepared to defend point-by-point.

Your concerns about mechanism, panpsychism, dualism, and hylomorphism are fair questions, but they are really directed at Egnor’s explanatory framework rather than my own. I’m not presently advancing a detailed metaphysical account here.

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I have known a few people who reported near-death experiences. They did not include any view of the room. Interesting but hard to say what to make of them.

In the not so serious experience category, my father had surgery to drain excess pericardial fluid - a different type of “near death” experience. In the recovery room, he decided to try to get up and comb his hair. Soon the nurse came racing in. He had dislodged a wire and thus flatlined according to the monitor. Although he said he didn’t see any mysterious lights or hear voices, I pointed out that his effort at combing showed that he was de-parted.

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LOL! …

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Hi Terry! Understood. Sorry if you feel my responses were a challenge to you.

I’m commenting on issues I think I see with Egnor et al.

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  • I will repeat here an earlier comment that I personally still believe.
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  • Not to worry, I didn’t, but ChatGPT told me that since I’m the one who introduced Egnor’s Youtube transcript, I should 'defend" them. And I pointed out to ChatGPT that I had given fair warning before posting the transcript that I honestly don’t think I could do Egnor’s position justice.
  • Personally, I’d be interested in hearing or reading Egnor’s responses to the points you raise.
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I’ve experienced the ‘fade out’ to intense white light and aural hallucinations a couple times after anesthesia was first administered.

The strangest experience was becoming aware while seemingly in the middle of a conversation with a nurse in the procedure room. I had no idea what the subject was but it left the impression of being interesting. That’s the power of memory blocking drugs. The doctor said, “Don’t worry. What’s said in the room stays in the room.” Next time I’m taking an audio recorder…

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Lol. Tell ChatGPT to bugger off.

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This reinforces my view that it is not possible or at least very difficult to determine whether NDEs are real experiences of an afterlife or just dreams induced by an oxygen-starved brain based on the current data.

IMO, public uncertainty doesn’t justify reducing people’s experiences to brain malfunction by default.

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