That’s a really thoughtful reply. This quote caught my attention, and I couldn’t help but think of my early education. I was not raised as a Christian but came to faith in my early twenties due to overwhelming pain and confusion with my life. Meeting a Christian at work and hearing Christian radio drew me to this faith where I felt there was life. An interesting turn or development came a few years later when I was supposed to write a paper for my Bible class on the gospel. I remember not having the words to write. There was this almost palatable loss of words. So I prayed for God to give me the gospel. Never did I think that a little while later I would be convinced of my total sinfulness and would agree with God that I deserved to go to hell. I didn’t think I was perfect before, but neither did I think that I was that bad.
Randy: The knowledge of good and evil is evidence of a self - conscious being. Certainly, what separates humans from other animals is our self - consciousness. We share basic biology with them, but we differ in our awareness. To me that is what Genesis 3 is addressing. It is a story about how sin came into the world. But in its particulars, it foreshadows evolution. By making it clear that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil before they ate the fruit, it was a tacit acknowledgement that they were little different from the rest of the animal Kingdom. It is a story of transition from animal consciousness to human self - consciousness.
Human desires in no way form reality, although they may alter our perception of it (or what we understand it to be). Let’s take an example we might both agree on, since we’re hanging out in a (Christian) faith and science forum:
How about the desire to have physical and spiritual healing and integration by use of chakras and crystals? I mean, the imagry is BEAUTIFUL. The stones are amazing. Etc. Etc.
I think you probably see, where I’m going. My desire for something is simply not an apologetic for its existence. My desire for something has nothing to do with its existence, rather demonstrates the existence of the desire.
As @Dale will tell you I’ve had it too good. Not materially so much but I’ve only ever really suffered in my late twenties when the car my my closest brother was driving was hit head on by a drunk driver who’d passed out at the wheel. My brother was brain dead and passed shortly after I was released from the hospital having suffered severe head trauma and a busted leg. He’d come to live with me after being discharged from the Air Force with medical impairments he’d been unaware of when he enlisted. Being six years younger than me he’d been my protege. He’d taken me out in his new to him used Karmann Ghia and to Fort Funston, my first time there. I was in and out for a while and had trouble making sense of my situation for a while and the situational stressors started piling up. My first wife left me, my first dog was struck and killed by another drunk driver and as soon as I got a small settlement from my insurance company (he wasn’t insured) I quit my job, became withdrawn and fell into a deep depression ( never diagnosed or treated.) Nothing I used to do that had given me pleasure before was meaningful or enjoyable anymore. I felt I’d lost my ability to think clearly and began thinking I’d never be very sharp mentally again but at one point when I accepted that and decided just to find out what I could do with this life, the depression started to lift. I started over.
While I was unemployed I slept and read a lot, mostly psychology, philosophy and spiritual books. I re-enrolled in the local JC where I took a philosophy of consciousness class which really led to my majoring in philosophy at Cal when I was 30. Not terribly practical but necessary. My new wife pushed me to go there when I would have chosen state college on my own. After graduating I decided my esoteric interests were too great a stretch from my military working class roots so I got a teaching credential and taught math for 25 years. Retired now I make a garden, walk my dogs and read novels when I’m not finding out what I think about religion here.
I’m sure religion would have been a fine way to have been a fine pathway to recovery had it been more prominent earlier but it wasn’t on board when I was set adrift. Fortunately what I think has given rise to God belief always has been. I have Christianity to thank for that.
It’s been a while since I looked at Lewis’ argument, but his point may be different than how you are framing it. Our choices are driven by the desire for happiness, so much so that it may be referred to as a universal or natural law.
I think what Lewis is saying is that if we all function this way, then there must be an object to fulfill this desire. Happiness cannot be an illusion.
It’s an argument I don’t think I have ever seen as deductive, but I find it helpful to think about how we all desire to be happy, and that is why God made it so that he is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him.
There is a lot there, some which I cannot comment on, but I do appreciate you sharing all of it with me. I’m looking forward to any future discussions we might have. Best regards.
Mark, I am so sorry for your loss. I can not imagine what you have gone through. Losing someone you try to protect is even harder, I think. You have an inspiring story of survival.
This specifically was what I am not able to comment on.
I am also sorry for your loss. While you said you have it too good, what you shared is a monumental tragedy made indefinitely worse by the Job like coincidence of losses. I have not experienced anything like that, but it can happen at any moment and the waiting can be unsettling at times.
I only meant I came to and then blacked out again multiple times in my brother’s car, the ambulance and at the hospital. I suspect the feelings alienation were a by product of withdrawing from social interaction. When I had to go to a store I was dumbfounded by peoples ability to make small talk. I’ve always has good insight into reading people and understanding what they say. It was probably this social disconnect which made me question whether my smarts were still intact
Let’s hope you can appreciate the amazing world we live in and the amazing gifts we are given that allow us to participate in it without ever requiring such a smack down awakening. Other than the loss of my brother and first dog I have to say I am better for it. I feel more alive and appreciative now than I did before. Mortality is so much more than its eventual end and death is only the end of what sets us apart as individuals. That isn’t the most important part.
In reality, the most important part is that life doesn’t end at death. Guess what kind of evidence we have to be able to say that. (For those who don’t know, we have factual evidence for the existence of the Christian God.)
I’m sure you’re not alone in that. But death is certainly the end of something. How would you describe what that may be? Obviously we’re speculating though we may not both realize that.
No question that it is the end of temporal mortality.
Please note my added parenthetical edit above. We, at least my part of we, is not speculating. That is what you are unwilling to realize, and we won’t go into the psychology of why. There is no speculation about the existence of the evidence, there is just rational acceptance or irrational denial.
Mark, thank you for this. So grateful to have the opportunity to be acquainted with you.
My mistake, I misread this part about you blacking out as if you were trying to make sense of the loss.
The last part is a stretch. It’s also wishful thinking that sounds nice at first. Like overcoming objectivity, and becoming one with the universe. Whether you see it happening now or after death, it’s the same horrible choice.
I think we’re on speculative ground here, regardless of what you believe about death aside from material decay. There is no simple fact of the matter which anyone is obliged to recognize. If you really think harps and wings is a more sensible speculation you’re welcome to your opinion but not mine.
Or, in my view, a choice between relentless insistence or a sincere recognition of your actual epistemic position. If you really need everyone else to agree you, your confidence is just bluster. But I’ll leave that for you decide.
Harps and wings. There is a stark divide between the loss of self, and he who said if it was not true that he went to prepare a place for us, he would have said so.
But if you had the means via some new or alien technology to continue your life indefinitely, would that be something you want?
Would I wish for the possibility? Not really. It will always seem like later would be preferable but I don’t think that is something I could vote for. Fortunately I don’t think that is or will be an option. How many iterations of humans do we really need on this planet? Better to make room for a new generation… of as many species as possible.
Oh, and as a non Christian obviously I don’t engage in proof texting.
Life through tech is a troubling possibility for me. I think that Jesus returning is the only thing I would trust in this life. And even that would be a hard one to accept. Although in his presence, I’m sure that it will be ok.
That’s fine with not.proof texting, but I hope that you can at least appreciate how great is the difference between your view and that one.
Definitely different. Viva la difference!