Laura, this would be great; just why I wanted to start it! @moderators could someone, please, reopen the Bibliography thread that Laura linked?
Done. ā¦,.
Abcd. 11 char reached
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I read the list of claims on that link and couldnāt stop laughing, especially the ones about the Grand Canyon. Then thereās this one:
The top Evolutionary Radiometric Dating Laboratories have now Carbon Dated dozens of dinosaur bones, and 100% of them only date as thousands of years old (we document it)
which reveals the problem with YEC material: THEY ARE LYING. The big lie here is that C14 dating is useful on dinosaur bones because C14 canāt date anything that old. So when they claim to have dated dinosaur bones using C14 they are following the Father of Lies by leading people to believe something that cannot by its very nature be true.
And that doesnāt make me laugh, it makes me angry.
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If you know what he had to say in his last few days . . . thatās worth liking because it shows how every Christian should face death.
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Yeah, that one makes me angry, too. There was all sorts of stuff to learn about St. Helens when I was studying geology because most of the geology faculty had actively studied it starting well before the eruption itself. Itās quite obvious that the YECists are deliberately looking to deceive people.
Actually if it was formed rapidly in soft sediments it doesnāt meander enough: it should have a thousand oxbow lakes and abandoned channels across an area at least three times as wide as it actually occupies, and the sides should have a slope of about 15Ā° maximum.
Iām not even inclined to listen to the sample clip!
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Their customers wonāt know that. This should be a dead give-away that the vast majority of YECists are in it for the money! These guys will get thousands in speaking fees and donāt even have to learn anything new.
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The sample audio clip includes the claim that dinosaurs and lizards are the same ākindā, the āreptileā kind, in order to claim that no ākindā of animal has ever gone extinct.
Thatās not just an absurd stretch of what is covered by a ākindā, lumping T Rex, Diplodocus with dwarf geckos, but also suggests that Komodo dragons, tuataras, skinks, alligators, marine iguanas, flying lizards and nano-chameleons (and possibly anacondas, adders, slow worms, turtles and tortoises) all evolved from just two ark-borne reptiles in a few thousand years.
He didnāt mention pterosaurs, but for his argument to work theyād have to be the same kind as nano-chameleons too.
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At least some of the proposals that Iāve seen would produce a completely straight valley because it should be getting carved in minutes to hours in the model.
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I wonder what theyād do with tooth-whorl sharks or placoderms or ā¦
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If he can put all the dinosaurs into the lizard kind, even the ones like Kosmoceratops, Therizinosaurus and Sharovipteryx, lumping whorl-tooths into the shark kind and placoderms in with bony fish is easy. Geosaurus and Elasmosaurus might be harder to place.
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Probably, depending on how soft the sediments were; Iāve seen some massive flood experiments where the outlet end had multiple channels, plus there were numerous side channels. It would also depend on how well the sediments adhered; low adhesion would produce a straighter channel because the sediments would be sloughing in fairly steadily while higher adhesion would produce a more wandering channel because the sides would fall in as massive slides or even chunks that would force the water to shift course.
Though another detail occurred to me: if that canyon was the result of a single massive flood event the delta down at the Sea of Cortez (Gulf of Baja) would be radically different. The delta as it is shows a long, slow, reasonably steady rate of deposition which is not consistent with a massive flood.
But a big trouble with āminutes to hoursā is that the energy involved in drawing down water that deep would boil the oceans. YECists seem to be very good at ignoring thermodynamics!
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Which would require a ridiculously rapid speciation ā another adjunct miracle.
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A huge single flood would seemingly make a broad fairly shallow canyon or canyons with multiple channels, whereas a deep canyon with a single channel would require a smaller volume of flow over time within the same narrow channel to remove the same volume of material.
Also, this statement would actually be a problem for YEC claims on Adam being the sole male ancestor 6000 years ago:
ā* Recent DNA Research Studies that confirm all humans genetically go back to one man, about 6000 years agoā
Reason being that if the literal view is consistent in holding to Noahās flood being global and complete, the earliest single male ancestor would then be Noah about 4000 years ago, as I understand their math. (4359 years to be exact)
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True. If one is trying to make it so that no kinds have gone extinct, what does one do with Herpetogaster, Vetulicolia, Hallucigenia, dinocaridid arthropods, trilobites, Cambropachycope, eurypterids, halkieriids, ammonoids, etcetera, etcetera; other than ignore them?
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The millions of years concept is unraveling day by day as Christian scientists put forth evidence. Dinosaur tissue, the fading of dark matter as something real, the lack of fossils to support evolution, the number of fake fossils in textbooks that have been debunked for decades, the incredible rock layer evidence showing it had to be laid down at the same time in a worldwide flood, proof coal forms fast, proof fossils form fast, proof rock layers form fast, evidence neanderthals were human is expansive and grows every year, etc. The Big Bang is held tightly knowing it has so many āfudge factorsā to make it work that it is worse than the geocentric model. A decision to believe something that looks, smells, and feels like Swiss cheese yet call it butter is a philosophical one.
There is but one authority and it is not āscienceā. Knowledge cannot be given a persona unless we make it deity! There was one eyewitness to the creation and His word that gives us life everlasting tells that story. We all have eternal life. We all pass from life to life. The only difference between one person and another is do we pass from light to light or darkness to darkness forever. In Genesis, light was created before the sun. In Revelation, heaven will not need a sun. From beginning to end, the Bible is Godās Word telling us who he is. We are lost if we think or suppose we can tell God who He is.
Why would you assume that Christian scientists are YEC? Most Christian scientists accept that the Earth is billions of years old.
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Speaking as a Christian scientistā¦ uh, no. Not even remotely true. A young earth/universe is utterly discordant with all of the data from a vast range of scientific fields. Iāll leave it to others to deal with your specific claims, since at this point in my life seeing the same stuff being trotted out just makes me weary.
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A discussion of which is linked here:
Given that the only other option for explaining star and galaxy motion patterns is that current understandings of gravity are significantly off, Iām doubtful that the concept will be going away soon.
Exactly where are they lacking? Iāve found a few dozen to hundred specimens of some of them myself.
Which ones? I have yet to see any in a textbook that werenāt being cited as fakes.
āIncredibleā is about right; how does unconsolidated shell-sand with repeated clear environmental turnover in it on top of limestone with a distinct fauna from the unconsolidated layer, on top of clayy limestone with yet another fauna fit a single depositional event? And why does biostratigraphy work if this is all one depositional event?
Under certain conditions which are not common ones.
Not ones with endolithic bivalves in positions that require the shell to have been dead before the endolithics began to grow in them, and then the endolithics lived for a few decades. Or silicification that preserves microstructure of shells.
Not ones with dozens of alternating terrestrial and marine layers or ones like the White Cliffs of Dover or ones with sediment that takes weeks to settle out of still water, etc., etc.
How exactly is it that they are genetically differentiable then?
What are the fudge factors exactly? Is this the same āinflation, dark matter, and dark energy are fudge factorsā claim that Iāve seen a few times before?
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The YEC response would be (partly) because of censored evidence that point to a young earth ā but not my view.
I am YEC as many here know.
I would like it if there was a free version to watch in its entiretyā¦its hard to critique based on an 11 minute sample. What i did listen toā¦at least he is easy to listen too.
To be really honest, its time wasting to argue science with scienceā¦its nothing more than one science interpretation of the evidence against another. Even within the secular world view, scientists do not all agreeā¦even on the age of things.
For me, the single biggest issue here is whether or not there is sufficient evidence to support a literal reading of the bible.
When we consider all of the evidence, i do not think one can 100% say that I know āthis is rightā or that is right"ā¦no one has any actual evidence from someone who recorded it even 6000 years ago (let alone millions of years ago).
So the argument becomes one of uniformitarianism vs those who do not believe in uniformitarianism.
I guess what i am saying is, because of the innability to actually cite original autographs for either world view, one is left with only a theological position.
Even the theological view has disagreements, that is one reason why there are so many different Christian denominations.
- St Roymond for example claims only those who know the original language and its audience could possibly understand what the writers originally meant (strangely enough this mostly only applies to stuff related to the biblical timelineā¦other writings are not really questioned and are taken as a natural reading of the text would suggest!)
- I am of the view that one must take the bible in its entirety and read using a natural reading of the text. We check cross references in the bible to ensure consistency in belief. If a particular interpretation is inconsistent with the overall bible themes and other bible writers, then there is every chance that interpretation is wrong!
As a side note, for me the single biggest problem i have with young earth creationism is the fossil recordā¦in particular dinosaurs.
I do not have a problem with the idea that dinosaurs could have lived with men, rather, I have an issue that God would create something like a T-REx in the first place. I really struggle with the idea that a herbivore could end up looking like that so soon after creation. I have a problem reconciling the idea that God would have sent even small versions of the T-Rex into the ark only to have them die out shortly after the floodā¦that doesnt really make sense to me personally.
To me its more likely that if for example, T-Rexes existed (and we know obviously they did), then they are not the animal God originally created. What we find in the fossil record as a T-Rex is something of an abomination that God wanted to wipe out at the time of the flood.
Let me add, i donāt really have overwhelming evidence for my conclusion regarding the T Rex example, its just that i cannot reconcile a T-Rex as an animal God created even as an herbivore that changed rather quickly (in only 1500 years or so) after the garden of Eden. Therefore, i think its more likely a result of mankind breeding them at the behest of the devil either before or after the flood (i lean towards the ābefore the floodā timeline personally)
I will also confess, Ellen White does promote a similar view as i holdā¦so i cannot deny that bias even though its not my reference for this view as such. In addition to my confession i will add that Hickman Science Centre at the SDA Southern University has published a paper that concludes God did create them but not as predatorsā¦so even among SDAās there is a differing of views on this
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