I am replying to this string of thought on two fronts.
Miracles - Most YECs think that miracles are in essence something created from nothing and that God can break the law of conservation of energy - energy cannot be created or destroyed. But biblically we know that God is Almighty, and that you cannot add to or take away from God. Since this is true, this also means God himself cannot create energy because he is already Almighty and needed to create more energy would mean he was not might enough already. You see where this is going? The conservation of energy is NOT just a scientific principle, it is a biblical one. If so, then how does God perform miracles. Now to the second point…
Probability - In quantum physics indeed we humans cannot predict presence of quantum particles except with probability. However, God the Father who is timeless and see all things past, present, and future, can predict with certainty. The so-called uncertainty principle is not uncertain with God! So by observing the otherwise improbable, God maintains complete control over the universe and indeed even causes what we would call miracles which are extremely improbable events that happen in a way that is ordered by the will of God.
This is really a good point. I cannot really explain the world as God sees I can only try to view from our human perspective. Perhaps since we believe that God lives outside of time maybe events dont appear random or variable but He sees with absolute certainty. Maybe it is in the way that we see the world in a more condensed macro view even knowing that at a much more atomic and subatomic level quantum physics allows uncertainty and variability and that which appears to us is the predictable outcome of the world we know. Kind of like watching a movie You’ve seen before! I believe that there really isn’t any uncertainty to God just to us.
I agree with the comment that God does not have to “predict”, and this concurs 100% with what I was suggesting, but I probably didn’t illustrate it well.
However, on the God created energy point, this is where I suggest that God IS almighty meaning he comprises ALL energy from the beginning until the end, which because he is infinite from a time perspective means this energy which is the embodiment of the almighty God cannot be created or destroyed.
Some suggest that God’s power is infinite, but it cannot be because infinite energy means we are all burnt to a crisp. As the bible says, God is Almighty. Infinite is not used in the bible referring to God’s power.
Also as mentioned before by someone else on this string, supernatural is NOT a term used in the bible. It is a man made term and in my opinion misrepresents God. He works in harmony with the natural world, not against it. His power is Almighty but completely natural, because He has the ability to control it by His will (quantum physics might also be called God physics) because of His ability to be omnipresent in all times (thus overcoming the uncertainty principle) as well as in all places through the Holy Spirit which is directed by the wisdom and truth of Jesus. How awesome is God!
I think some of the terms being used here are not really meant in a scientific sense. So many people would say that God is “all powerful”, but that doesn’t mean he is blasting full power at us all the time - it means he has the capacity to do anything - or at least anything that is logically consistent. It would be meaningless to say that God can make 2 plus 2 equal -1 for example! It might be better to say that he is not limited by weakness. Likewise “supernatural” is a useful word in some contexts even if it doesn’t hold up well against scientific scrutiny.
The original thread here though is about God’a active presence throughout the long history of creation. I’m not really concerned about how he does that, but I am concerned when I see YECs assuming that we believe God left the scene after the first cell was planted because his intervention was no longer necessary!
Assuming you are using energy in the normal everyday definition, ever hear of the atomic bomb? That is man making energy out of matter. E = m * c^2 if you want the recipe.
Actually, the atomic bomb is converting the latent energy in matter to kinetic energy. Matter can be created or destroyed in an atomic or hydrogen bomb, but energy is not.
Conservation of energy principle is considered a doctrine of science. That is why when you say God creates energy, scientists cringe!
Well stated Mary. I didn’t realize YECs were actually suggesting that God does not act on the universe. Jesus certainly does through the Holy Spirit all the time.
I was trying to reflect what some YECs think we believe. I have had conversations where YECs where they are very upset because they think our version of events means that we believe that God left everything to science once it was started. That is not what YECs believe, it is not what we believe! So there is a lot of miscommunication going on.
But I think we need to be careful not to elevate science to a level above God. It can only address things within the known world around us. It is presumptive to say that science rules might limit God in some way.
Does God have limits? Can God be evil, be unfaithful, be unjust? No of course not. I am personally grateful for these limitations.
Does science limit God? I would rather ask does science negate God’s attributes as described in the bible. If a scientific theory negates any one of those attributes, then it is false science. But if a scientific theory supports ALL those attributes then it is at least possible for this scientific theory to be true.
Perhaps it would be an interesting discussion to list all the attributes of God that are described in the bible, and then identify which scientific theories limit God and which do not. This might be a path to truth.
In the accepted definition of the term, latent energy refers to the energy in an object that results from it’s position in space. Also called potential energy. Think a car sitting on top of a hill.
In the accepted definition of the term, kinetic energy refers to the energy in a moving object. Think of a car that has rolled down the hill and is now moving. In fact at the bottom of the hill the kinetic energy of the car is equal to the potential energy at the top of the hill less losses due to friction and drag (if the engine is not running).
The atomic bomb produces much more than kinetic energy. It also produces mass quantities of thermal energy and radiant energy. It does this by converting matter directly into energy by either splitting or fusing atoms.
Strict conservation of energy was a doctrine until Einstein came along and showed that matter and energy are equivalent. See wikipedia article on mass-energy equivalence for the details.
In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant—it is said to be conserved over time.[1] Energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it transforms from one form to another. For instance, chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy in the explosion of a stick of dynamite.
A consequence of the law of conservation of energy is that a perpetual motion machine of the first kind cannot exist. That is to say, no system without an external energy supply can deliver an unlimited amount of energy to its surroundings.[2]
Since you replied to me I’ll add my bit on your first point. I think we need to distinguish the biblical concept of “energy” in relation to God, meaning just his “working” by divine power, and the physics concept of “energy” which was a way of describing physical activity developed by modern science.
To say that energy could not be made or destroyed was an observation from experiments, that was made a working assumption for the universe as a whole treating it as a closed (ie isolated) system. But if God created the closed system, then he could bring all its energy into being - and if he destroyed the universe, he would be destroying its energy as well as its mass. He does not add to himself in the act of creation, nor diminish himself - but he expresses himself (which is why Genesis speaks of his word of command, and the New Testament speaks of Jesus, the Son, as the creative Word of God.) We neither diminish ourselves nor add to ourselves by speaking, as far as I know.
Since he is Creator, the universe is not closed to him, and he could create anything extra he wanted should that be his will. We know it is not closed to him because he came into it himself in the Incarnation of the Lord. Miracles are simply signs of his working (“energy”!) for the sake of mankind - the laws of science have nothing valid to say about them. But Scripture also says “My Father continues his work unto this very hour” - and that includes his creative work in providentially directing the world’s affairs.
The discussion so far has pointed out the interchangability of matter and energy under relativity. That would imply, on your reasoning to me, that he cannot create matter either, since it would be no different from creating energy. And if he did not create matter and energy, that would imply that matter and energy are themselves God - I’m not sure many of us would want to get into pantheism!
Jon,
Thanks for this dialogue. I have wanted to go into the issue of the “closed system” concept.
Indeed, I have heard others suggest that God exists outside of the “closed system” of the universe. And he essentially opens a door and comes in and does His creation and miracles and then closes the door so to speak so the other rules of science continue… And so he can bring energy into this closed system where energy cannot be created or destroyed.
But it seems to me that once the door is opened the system is no longer “closed” and God becomes a part of it. With the door open, does the conservation of energy principle still work. Is God not mighty enough to work with the energy that exists with the door open that he has to add some energy to what He is.
I propose a much simpler model. Yes the universe, all of it, is of God and it is vast and almost beyond comprehension. There is no closed system but one system. God creates by choice, and controls all by choice, through principles of quantum physics (quantum tunneling for creating species, quantum gravity for controlling formation of galaxies and planets). In such a system God expresses himself as you say, converting energy to matter and visa versa consistent with His science. All in this universe is comprised of the Mind of God, and quanta, Quanta existed with God from the beginning and indeed is essentially the glorified body of God. Similarly Jesus had a glorified body that could pass through walls. And we will have a glorified body after the resurrection on judgment day. By being intimate with the mind of God the Father in heaven, we can through choice move through walls etc yet still have physical form.
I know this all sounds like sci-fi wacko stuff, but it seems to mesh with science and the bible.
What do you think?
It’s been mentioned before elsewhere, that in relation to the scope of Earth’s creation and life on the earth, you do not need to refer to the entire Universe and its state of entropy.
The multi-billion year arc of our modest little sun is more than enough to keep the Earth swimming in available energy.
All this entropy talk is a red herring… because the Theories of Evolution do not require a planet’s life to be eternal, or a sun’s life to be eternal. Both of these things only have to survive long enough for God to guide evolution through the key phases of human development.
I agree that to see the Universe as a closed system, with God outside, is a poor way of conceiving things. It’s also unbiblical, in that God is intimately involved with every aspect of it (his immanence): “in him we live, and move, and have our being”.
Yet The Bible is also careful to distinguish God from what he has made “The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you.”
So I can’t go along with your reasoning, which seems to me excessively physical, that by the universe being open to God we must conclude that God is part of it (though he’d have to be all of it, surely). Arguments that speak about “God not being mighty enough to …” are so subjective, as I said on another thread recently: they presuppose that we know what God wants to do and how, based on our human reasoning.
So your final paragraph can either be taken as sci-fi stuff, or as one plausible scenario. But in the end it’s taking some of the few things we know from science and joining the dots imaginatively to make a theory of divine action, Incarnation, Resurrection and a bunch of other stuff we actually know nothing about. .
However, what I can wholeheartedly agree with is the simple statement: “God creates by choice, and controls all by choice” - because that’s abundantly affirmed by revelation. It’s interesting to push the boundaries a bit further to try and flesh that out, but in the end it’s most of what we need to know about creation, and absolutely compatible with science (if you dispense with closed causal systems and the idea of “chance” as a cause of anything).
Thanks Jon and I find myself agreeing with your summary!.
Indeed what I was proposing is an extrapolation of stuff we know little or nothing about.
Sharing a personal journey,
I struggled for 40 years in trying to figure out an answer that would make the ability of God to perform the miracles in the bible at least feasible. Originally, I denied the possibility, and then asked myself, if not God than how? I went from believing it must be all chance and totally cause and affect, to finally denying this hypothesis and accepting that God must exist.
In this journey, and at my moment of salvation, this connection of dots came to me. It’s all possible, and not only possible but God is real and Jesus is real. It the answer I was seeking - seek and you shall find - and I believe God delivering it to me so I could be saved?
I have since come to know God very personally, and my faith now resides in that relationship rather than on this theory. But I still can’t get over the idea that it was this hypothesis that came to me that got me over the hump, and may get others like me over it as well. So while it may be a wild connection of dots, perhaps it is true because of how it came to me. If so I have to share it, and so I do here.
Peace.
I’ve mentioned before (with shame) that my own conversion was associated with a youthful enthusiasm for UFOs, which had me taking Jesus seriously as a possible benign extraterrestrial before I began to see a better way!
The point is that the Lord (for reasons best known to himself) used that weird route, and subsequently as I learned from him he taught me to dump the nonsense. Another good friend of mine came to faith after getting involved with a rather dangerous cult - and yet another after doing a Jehovah’s Witness Bible study.
If we commit ourselves to being taught by the Lord and by his word, he commits himself to leading us increasingly into truth and away from falsehood. Cultivate the relationship right, and the rest will tend to look after itself, I’ve found.