Stop trying to control what people post. If you don’t like it, too bad.
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What I’m saying that if God hurls an asteroid at us we should try to defend ourselves. That is self-defense against God’s actions.
No, don’t be silly. Never said that, never implied that. People die for different reasons.
So is God directly controlling weather or indirectly controlling weather?
Not sure why you’d frame a scenario like this. Is it the Christian position to be in opposition of God’s will? Or is it to say, “Not my will, but your will be done?” — I don’t know why anyone should be encouraged to purposefully be in defiance against God (sounds a bit like Prometheus glorified as a hero for defying the tyrannical Zeus) … I would expect a person that doesn’t believe in God to make such an objection. I don’t expect that kind of argumentation from a person of faith though.
So I’m a bit confused.
You wrote, “So is God directly controlling weather or indirectly controlling weather?”
I wouldn’t really frame the question like this as it is more irrelevant to the original theological quandary. The real question is, “Is God in control of the weather at all?” … Direct and indirect aren’t the point of the question, because the theology still remains. If God is NOT in control of the weather than it follows that something ELSE is in control of the weather. What that “other force” is, remains a mystery, and seems like a force that tries to usurp God’s throne — or at the very least share it.
You can believe in this “other force” if you like … But it’s hard to get that impression from reading the Bible or from the holistic reading of the majority of Church Fathers.
It is not my duty to relegate how you think (only God knows the heart), but I am engaging in this conversation to see how it squares with the biblical understanding I’ve come across … Or if it is a just another idea that one is holding onto despite of what the Bible seems to be teaching.
You can offer an alternative understanding to these texts, and the conversation can go from there. You can also say that these texts are misguided or false, and that would also be an option … But if you go down that road I’m not sure that I will join you, and we will have to part ways.
-Tim
@beaglelady’s response was:
Why don’t you think this is HER answer?
Only the most devious of correspondents would try to prevaricate an answer by offering a pithy quote (as above) with someone like YOU thinking that the answer was intended to shield her from answering her OWN view.
George
Tim,
God created the weather and God created asteroids, but that does not mean that God is behind and responsible for every thing that asteroids or the weather does.
I observe that there is a new book which proposes a new view that says the asteroid and dark matter cased the extinction of the dinosaurs. If so it would indicate that evolution of humans as we know it was planned and determined.
While I would agree that the asteroid played a role in the extinction, I doubt as to whether it happened this way.
However this event is interesting to discuss with those who so not think that evolution has a purpose. They claim to accept the facts of science, except when the facts of science do not support their views.
Still God is in overall control, but God does not micromanage. God does not have to work directly to control the Creation, because works can work indirectly, just as humans work indirectly. We educate our children, not by personally teaching them, although we do that too, but by sending them to school and other educational opportunities. That does not mean that our children will learn as we would want them to learn. That does not mean that we are responsible for negative things that happen at school.
Weather does good things and not so good things, but overall it is definitely good as God created it to be good. Same with asteroid, but that does not mean that humans might still need to protect themselves against the destructive power of asteroids and weather. Nothing created is purely good or purely evil.
btw, does God give bad statutes?
I would agree. He’s not the grand puppeteer of the universe.
So what? I did frame the question that way.
Thanks for adding some perspective Roger. My real complaint is the overt negativity of nature by folks in general. There is a weird view that everything that causes pain, discomfort, or general suffering is “not God’s doing” but “something else”. I think a more appropriate outlook is “Yes, that lightning strike caused a forest fire. But it also brought about a whole new generation of pine cone trees.” Or, “I don’t know the purpose of such ‘n’ such, but I believe that God has his reasons.” … Many things that we deem as “bad” often turn out to be good, and visa versa. It’s usually because of our limited perspective, that we are stuck looking at a small section, and unable to see the grand picture (sorta like a person on a 2-D portrait can’t possibly comprehend what’s going on in the 3-D universe).
I want to avoid to relegating what God would and would not based on our subjective opinions. I’m happy that you acknowledge the creation is created to be “very good”. From some I would get the impression that just the opposite is true.
-Tim
No need to be antagonistic. All I was saying is that “direct” and “indirect” action is irrelevant to my original question.
But since you’ve asked, I’m not sure. The weather is complex, and can be studied, predicted to a certain degree… Does that mean that God is no longer acting? I wouldn’t think so. God also forms babies in the womb… Does the fact that we can study the process of a baby growing in the womb, and know something about it, mean that we’ve pushed God aside? Again, I don’t think so. God is still creating, in whatever fashion that means.
God creates lighting, snow etc., and we can even replicate these phenomenon as well as study them. But God is still involved in the processes.
You wrote, “God is not the grand puppeteer of the Universe.”
Are you saying the He created and walked away or that He created and intervenes now and then? Do you believe that God sustains all things and without Him there wouldn’t be anything made that was made? Is He a Creator, a Sustainer, but some things were outside of his control? It seems odd to me that you would say “Grand Puppeteer of the Universe” in a sarcastic manner, when there are passages that says we are “slaves to Christ”.
There is a psalm that says “Lord, how manifold are thy works! In wisdom hast though made them all!” … Did God not create asteroids in wisdom?
-Tim
I don’t have a list, but we know they must be there, right?
@Eddie, We’ve been through this before.
The Jewish Encyclopedia seems “at peace” with acknowledging the “bad statutes” - - and even specifies the bad statutes!
Ezekiel 20:25–6 speaks disapprovingly of sacrificing children.
For “bad statutes” see Ex. 22:28–29 and
Ezekiel 16:21, 20:31, 23:37, 39 regarding sacrificing children to unnamed divinities.
Ezekiel is contradicting another writer who attempts to say that it was not God’s idea to sacrifice children.
Circumcision is maintained by some to be the substitute for the “bad statute” … and the story of Abraham and Isaac is supposed to shut the door on these “Bad Statutes”.
George
I think a re-reading of Job 38-42 might be advisable here. Here’s just the very beginning to remind us all of the tone of this text:
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
2 “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone,
7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
We are all welcome to discuss His Word for the purpose of better understanding His wishes and how best to behave, but let’s not fool ourselves into believing the sheep will ever know enough to challenge the judgement of the Shepherd.
I don’t recall anybody claiming to know enough to challenge the judgement of God. btw, does the earth really have a foundation?
Proposing to resist God’s plan (e.g., this thread’s immediate example was the hypothetical asteroid coming towards Earth) or suggesting that He gives us “bad statutes” is questioning God’s judgement that those are exactly what is best for us at each moment in time, even if we don’t “get it”.
I think there was a time when there was a genuine confusion/conflation of the moloch cult and the Yahweh cult. And that in the Exile, the Jewish priests were able to finally and definitively DRIVE A WEDGE between Moloch practices and the “good practices” of Yahweh.
But I’m not particularly interested in this vein of discussion; it’s too peripheral to most people’s interests, and certainly too peripheral to the question of God-Guided Evolution.
George