Please re-read the post. I didn’t say that.
[quote=“johnZ, post:68, topic:784”]
So what does this have to do with evolution, abortion, or homo marriage?[/quote]
Nothing. So why does a subset of Christians regard these as ultimate litmus tests?
You haven’t connected them at all. More importantly, you’re not acknowledging that if the New Testament accurately represents the teachings of Jesus, they are trivial, since Jesus didn’t even mention them.
Scripture is very clear that unwanted killing of a foetus is a mere property crime, not murder.
I appreciate your comments Joao and JohnZ. John, part of your response is a clear example of the standard YEC response, " YEC say that EC or TE ‘could be’ christians, but they are being inconsistent with their christianity". Most who disagree with YEC do not level the charge ‘they may be christians’ and thus the frustration. Is it Gods Word that is the arbitrator or the YEC narrow Interpretation of the Genesis literature? Do YEC truly Interpret the ancient account correctly or are they forcing a modernist, scientific viewpoint on the account ? Do they take into account what type of literature they are reading or do they assume that they can read back into the account through a modernist lens? My contention is that the YEC interpretation does not do justice to the Beauty and Majesty of Scripture (a wooden ‘literalism’) but I do not question their allegiance to Jesus. There is the rub and my contention that YEC and atheistic evolutionists (opposite ends of the spectrum) will always maintain a war-like stance. I truly believe that YEC place an unbearable burden on our young and add to the gospel. I have never read in any of the Creeds or in the Scriptures that a believer has to believe in YEC or their salvation or Christianity is suspect.
Believe it or not, I wrote a post a few years ago on this very issue. Not sure how helpful it is but here’s a link if others are interested:
Justin
Interesting. Real clear on that is it? Like killing of slaves? Scripture is also very clear that murder is wrong, that rape is wrong, that theft is wrong, that adultery is wrong. Which of these will you choose to obey?
Exodus 21:22-25
"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. “But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.”
I assume this means injury to the child as well as to the mother. And these penalties are the same as for any other injury or murder.
What does this sentence mean to you? (Since you quoted this verse twenty hours ago.)
I don’t question your allegiance to Jesus, Vance. But like any allegiance, it can be questioned as to what it means. You yourself would likely agree that if someone says they are a Christian, but they do not follow Christ, but merely think their good deeds outweigh their bad deeds, then perhaps they simply do not understand what it means to be a Christian. On a less fundamental level, when someone challenges someone else’s committment to their confession of Christ, because they do not appear to have an understanding that sin is man’s fault, not God’s, and that God created everything good, not evil, then these are legitimate challenges and questions.
You claim not to judge YEC for their faith, yet you accuse them of a wooden literalism, which presumably is bad because it misunderstands scripture. And if one misunderstands scripture, presumably there is something lacking. So that’s a bit similar. By the way, the accusation is quite false, as you should know, Vance. The literalism is not “wooden”. The literalism is reading something as it normally would be understood. However, most christians believe in miracles, because they do accept scripture as written. This is a literal understanding that is alive, growing, appreciative, and thankful. (Not wooden.)
John, let’s see how truly you are devoted to Scripture. Here’s the same passage from the New American Standard Bible in 1977:
And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage,…
The SAME version in 1995, apparently the one you chose:
If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely,…
Huge difference, wouldn’t you say?
If you believe the Bible is the key to eternal life, isn’t it worth reading in the languages in which it was written? How can something that so many people consider a litmus test for Christianity itself be the product of a changed translation, decided entirely by people?
What does it mean to you, what you quoted, “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”?
John,
I guess I am not following. Questioning ones allegiance is different than questioning one’s hermeneutics or more specifically one’s ability to appreciate biblical genres. The bible is full of ‘miracles’ that cannot be separated from its message. “Literalism” is a loaded word in conversations such as this because we all want to read the Word as it was literally meant to be read by the original hearers-then we move onto correct interpretation and application. I am putting aside for the moment that the OT speaks of Jesus. I suppose I still get the "judgmental’ vibe with your choice of words and analogy. You use as an example people who are not ‘true believers’ as Christ is quite clear about obeying and hearing his Word. Paul is clear that faith is not of works. I believe we as a Body need to be careful what we add to the Gospel so as not to burden those young in the faith. I do not recall any Creed that states you must believe YEC narrow Interpretation of Genesis in order to be saved. God spoke the Creation into being but little is said concerning mechanisms. What is essential to Christian Faith and Practice?
Vance, I am glad you realize that YEC (as yourself also) want to read the Word as it was literally meant to be read. So you are not far from them then in that way. I mentioned that YEC do not say that EC cannot be christians, which you seemed hesitantly to accept with reservations. So they do not question your motive, or your committment, but only your theological consistency. If you follow Christ (as a Christ-follower) because Jesus has redeemed you from sin, and brought you back to God, then what separated you from God in the first place, and why do you need to be redeemed? I think that would be their main question.
You get the judgemental vibe from me partly in response to your judgemental vibe of “wooden literalism”. Your statement of “wooden literalism” is exactly on the same plane or parallel to your perception of YEC judgements of evolutionary christians not understanding God’s relationship to creation, nor to man. It’s a judgemental statement that seems to imply that YEC have no imagination and do not understand metaphors, similies, allegories, hyperbolies, and other figures of speech. I don’t condemn you for judging them in this way, but it is necessary that you realize how judgemental you are being when you say that. (and inaccurate).
Paul is clear that faith is not of works? Well, I think actually he says something like that grace is by faith, not by works. We are not saved by our works, and ultimately saved not by ourselves, by our own actions, but saved through faith, saved by God in Christ. But it is important to note that James says that faith without works is dead, a dead faith. And John’s epistles indicate that christ-followers will not continue to live in sin. This is not a burden, but an automatic result of faith and God’s spirit working in us. (Not in perfection, but in direction.)
My confusing comment on miracles was intended to highlight that this supposed wooden literalism happens to all Christians who believe in miracles and in the resurrection of Christ, which is foundational and essential to the faith of those who follow Christ.
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