Create life in the laboratory?

And they have done just that. Research on OOL is small-scale (compared, say, to research on cancer or on the brain) but it is robust and has made important progress. You need only read recent review articles on the subject to know this. One very recent one is by a science writer at one of our sister journals, and I highly recommend it. Contact me for a reprint if you are interested.

Assuming that the process lasted millions of years and required myriad steps and intermediates, etc., etc., the claim that scientists have “failed to create life in the lab” is just as meaningful as the claim that scientists have failed to create galaxies in supercolliders. The question of whether either has been achieved is, IMO, ridiculous.

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As a chemist, I cannot help but admire the belief, against so much reproducible science that negates speculation such as displayed in papers such as "How life can arise from chemistry. The following quote from this paper is telling:

We may never know how the spark was lit that led to some kind of molecular self-propagating, evolving system and onwards to the RNA world and more complex cellular life. Indeed, it is hard to imagine a way in which this initial breakthrough could have left a trace that we might detect. The important part is, however, that it did happen.

These bio-scientists start from the premise that life must have arisen from simple inorganics molecules and then proceed to use complex molecules that require strict conditions, and proclaim, “it must have happened this way”. I have read papers and reviews over the past year or two, and have noticed in all cases, scientists abandoning normal skepticism and questioning required by science, to maintain a non-science based belief, that it must have happened.

As a chemist I would be delighted if these chaps did provide some plausible reaction pathway(s) that demonstrated the synthesis of complex organic molecules required for life from simple inorganic molecules. This has as yet NOT been demonstrate, and as scientists we should have a serious attitude to credible science, and leave whatever belief (displayed in such papers) outside our laboratory.

As a professional editor at a journal of “bio-science” I can say that GJDS has typed insulting and inaccurate claims that do not deserve a response. Anyone who has actually read the science knows that this: [quote=“GJDS, post:66, topic:5604”]
then proceed to use complex molecules that require strict conditions, and proclaim, “it must have happened this way”.
[/quote]
is obnoxiously false.

I am pleased to see that the BL system allows one to ignore posters. That’s probably the wise next step.

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Your acerbic response does not contain one fact that a chemist may consider in a calm way, and I challenge you to show why so many maybes and perhaps litter the paper you allude to. Biologos should put the veracity of scientific statements first and not be drawn into attacks and insults.

Ralph, aren’t you contradicting yourself?

If you consider it an indicator if it isn’t accomplished and not an indicator if it is, what’s your point?

Excellent analogy.

Hi Stephen, thanks for joining us here. I think your expertise in cell biology may come in handy. Just dismissing someone by ignoring that person won’t help any kind of discussion.

A bit of background may be useful. @GJDS has been maintaining such claims here for (at least) the past few years. From his writings on this site, I gather that he’s asking for a plausible chemical pathway from basic chemical building blocks towards anything resembling RNA. See, for example, this reply by me in a previous discussion between me and George:

The gist of my reply was that origins-of-life research has pushed back the frontiers from DNA complexes towards RNA. That’s already laudable progress. There will always be frontiers in science, but they are continuously shifting at the moment. Therefore I dare say that significant progress is being (and will be) made on the origins of RNA, too. Though that won’t affect George much because he will likely shift his scepticism to wherever the frontiers happen to be.

@sfmatheson, is there anything you think would be useful to add to what I said earlier to @GJDS? I think your expertise could help to formulate an answer that is more thorough and (hopefully) more satisfactory to George. After all, I am just a poor neuroscientist / astrophysicist myself :wink: .

Casper

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Steve- great to see you here. Welcome back.

I’d like you to give GJDS the benefit of the doubt here, and not immediately characterize his replies as “insulting”, etc. Yes, GJDS has serious doubts about abiogenesis research, and yes, he is perhaps not describing it accurately (I agree with you on that point). That said, coming to the discussion assuming good faith is important. You’re welcome to disagree, even strongly, but try to assume good faith on the part of those on “the other side”.

Best,

Dennis

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I am pleased to see some clarity on this subject - I however need to point out that the paper that has underpinned this discussion is on chemistry involving simple molecules and from this extrapolate to bio-molecules. So I am not putting forward some idiosyncratic view, but instead commenting on the very basis for your remarks. Thus no-one has come up with plausible reaction pathways - this is not a crime nor a reason for angst and insults - it is a straightforward fact. My objection is to the rhetoric that comes from non-chemists, who then begin to talk of the chemistry of life. without such plausible pathways.

It is grossly incorrect to say that I am against people working at any frontier of a scientific discipline - my entire life as a scientist has included asking questions and seeking answers at such frontiers in my field, and I have understood that questions are central to such a task, and scepticism is essential. I am inclined to think that if complex questions lead to simple answers, than the answers are inevitably incorrect. Also, the best research in my experience always includes enjoyment at both the errors and progress we make. My remarks on belief and faith tend to add a sharp note to my fewer comments on this site.

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I would be very interested in this article, if it would be possible for you to share it! My gmail is lynnamunter. Thanks in advance!

For clarity, we should agree on a very salient fact–there is no simple molecules/“bio”-molecules dichotomy like the one you are promoting with claims like that. A whole lot of biology concerns the simplest molecules and ions. For example, a poisonous ion (Ca2+) functions in central roles in an insane number of signaling pathways.

Yes, but your field is applied, not basic, so there’s a massive difference there that I don’t see you acknowledging.

Just curious if this is in the ballpark of what you’re looking for? I haven’t actually read it myself, just picked the link off Wikipedia, ref. 106 in the Abiogenesis article. Is it one you’ve seen already?

Or how about this one (ref. 127, 128)?

http://www.nature.com/nchem/journal/v7/n4/full/nchem.2202.html

To what extent have you looked? Why would you expect it to be condensed in one place for you?

A good presentation of a metabolic origin is:
https://www.amazon.com/Vital-Question-Evolution-Origins-Complex/dp/0393352978/

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I cannot provide a brief comment that would be sufficient for this exchange, so instead I am providing the synthetic methods reported in J. AM. CHEM. SOC. 2010, 132, 16677–16688, “Chemoselective Multicomponent One-Pot Assembly of Purine Precursors in Water”. The plausibility question arises when we try to imagine these conditions being met in an earth envisaged a few billion years ago – this should not be interpreted as criticism of the actual synthesis reported in this paper. It is grossly unfair to assume I am attacking such work, and anyone who reads this paper, or other ones, will note the authors a very circumspect in their discussion. Even beyond these methods, we are faced with even greater hurdles when we consider optical purity. I can post some of the reactions schemes in this paper if people are interested, but I think I have made my point.

General Synthetic Methods. Method A: A solution of aminoimidazole
2 or 3 (g1 equiv) and 2-aminooxazole 5 (1 equiv) in
D2O was adjusted to the desired pD. A solution of aldehyde (1
equiv) in D2O and, if required, DMSO-d6 was added. The pD was
adjusted as necessary by addition of DCl or NaOD, and the reaction
was volumetrically adjusted to the required concentration and then
incubated at the specified temperature. The progress of reactions
in deuterated solvents was directly monitored by NMR spectroscopy.
Method B: A solution of aminoimidazole 2 or 3 (g1 equiv) and
2-aminooxazole 5 (1 equiv) in H2O was adjusted to the desired
pH. A solution of aldehyde (1 equiv) in H2O was added. The pH
was adjusted as necessary by addition of HCl or NaOH, and the
reaction was volumetrically adjusted to the required concentration
and then incubated at the specified temperature. Reaction mixtures
were lyophilized and dissolved in deuterated solvents for NMR
spectroscopic studies. One or more diastereomeric products were
isolated from each reaction for charaterization.
Method C: An aqueous solution of cyanoacetylene (0.98 M, 3-5
equiv) was added to tetrahydroimidazo[1′,3′]-2′′-aminooxazolo[1′,2′]-
pyrimidines (20 mM), and the solution was then heated at 60 C
for 1-3 d with stirring. Analytical samples were removed and
lyophilized to assess reaction progress by 1H NMR spectroscopy.
rac-1′,2′,3′,N-Tetrahydroimidazo[1′,3′]-2′′-aminooxazolo[1′,2′]-
pyrimidine-4-carbonitrile (6). Method A: 5-Aminoimidazole-4-
carbonitrile 2 (24.8 mg, 0.23 mmol) and 2-aminooxazole 5 (20 mg,
0.23 mmol) were dissolved in D2O (1.0 mL) at pD 5.0, 6.0, or 7.0.
Formaldehyde (37%, 18.6 mg, 0.23 mmol) was added in D2O (0.5
mL), the pD was rechecked, and the reaction volume was adjusted
to 2 mL by the addition of D2O. The reactions were incubated at
room temperature, and the progress of the reaction was assessed
by 1H NMR spectroscopy (see Supporting Information, Figure S4,
for 1H NMR spectra at pD 5.0, 6.0, and 7.0). The formation of
rac-1′,2′,3′,N-tetrahydroimidazo[1′,3′]-2′′-aminooxazolo[1′,2′]-pyrimidine-
4-carbonitrile 6 was observed at all pD values. 6 was then
crystallized by cooling the reaction at pD 5.0 to 4 C for 2 d. 6
was isolated by filtration and washed with ice-cold water, and a
single crystal was removed for X-ray diffraction.
Method B: 5-Aminoimidazole-4-carbonitrile 2 (1.29 g, 11.9
mmol) and 2-aminooxazole 5 (1.00 g, 11.9 mmol) were dissolved
in H2O (10 mL) at pH 5.0. Formaldehyde (37%, 0.96 g, 11.9 mmol)
was added, the pH was rechecked, and the reaction volume was
adjusted to 20 mL with H2O. After 20 min a white precipitate had
formed in the reaction. The reaction was mechanically stirred for a
further 15 h. The solids present were isolated by filtration, and the
filtrate was lyophilized. The combined solids were redissolved in
aqueous methanol by heating and agitation. Slowly cooling to room
temperature gave 1.68 g (69%) of 6 as a white solid. Recrystallization
of the lyophilized filtrate afforded a further 0.5 g (20%) of 6.

I apologize for pushing if you are short on time, but what I’m gathering from your post is that making purines (at least as that paper described) required a lot of specific steps?

And yet, NASA says that purines form naturally in outer space. So maybe that paper doesn’t represent the most efficient way of synthesizing purines. Or maybe it does, but those steps aren’t all that difficult to accomplish.

"Formamide produces all four ribonucleotides and other biological molecules when warmed in the presence of various terrestrial minerals. Formamide is ubiquitous in the Universe, produced by the reaction of water and hydrogen cyanide (HCN). It has several advantages as a biotic precursor, including the ability to easily become concentrated through the evaporation of water.[110][111] "

I quote this from Wikipedia only because it is also relevant to the formation of purines. Multistep? Yes. Unreasonable? I am hardly a chemist, but it looks plausible as far as I can tell.

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I think you may be underestimating the role of decades of practical experience and knowledge that your roof-builders have and use, if we’re going with analogy. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Here’s another thought-experiment: if the goal is to build a tall card-castle out of a deck of cards, 20 people tackling the problem, no matter how enthusiastic, may experience little advantage over one person. Which is to say, sometimes you just have to go step-by-step and it takes time.

I’m glad you’re interested in this topic, and your current stance seems reasonable, although I personally would not stake much on betting that science won’t be able to illuminate a great deal about the origin of life in the next decade or two. Exciting times!

This person is habitually dismissive of my colleagues and my discipline, and I quoted him writing a blanket dismissal of an entire area of scientific inquiry. Disengaging from such behavior is considered wisdom by most people I know.[quote=“Casper_Hesp, post:70, topic:5604”]
I gather that he’s asking for a plausible chemical pathway from basic chemical building blocks towards anything resembling RNA.
[/quote]

That’s what the entire world of OOL research is asking for. It’s what the article I cited is all about.[quote=“Casper_Hesp, post:70, topic:5604”]
@sfmatheson, is there anything you think would be useful to add to what I said earlier to @GJDS? I think your expertise could help to formulate an answer that is more thorough and (hopefully) more satisfactory to George. After all, I am just a poor neuroscientist / astrophysicist myself :wink: .
[/quote]

No, there’s nothing to add. My objection was not to GJDS’ skepticism. It is to his habitual dismissal of his fellow scientists. Read his responses to Michael Gross’ piece again, if that will help you understand why I don’t see how meaningful scientific dialogue is likely to be fruitful when starting with accusations that are not just uncharitable but simply incorrect.

It is truly decent and reasonable for you and @DennisVenema to wish for assumptions of “good faith” and the “benefit of the doubt” for GJDS. Maybe you might consider that I am asking for the same thing for Michael Gross, Jack Szostak, Norm Sleep, Gerald Joyce, Thomas Carell, and Steven Benner. Do you think they deserve the same benefit of the doubt as GJDS?

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The Current Biology piece covers this specifically, because purine synthesis is one of the big hot questions in abiogenesis. Those who follow research in the area will know that there was a major advance reported about 6 months ago, and discussed in the Current Biology piece. That advance was about plausible routes to purines in plausible prebiotic earth environments. The paper, “A high-yielding, strictly regioselective prebiotic purine nucleoside formation pathway,” was published in Science, and was accompanied by commentary in Nature and in the same issue of Science that makes context and caveats clear.

The Nature Chemistry paper you cited a few comments ago is cool and interesting too, it seems to ask about whether metabolic systems could have arisen simultaneously. I haven’t read it yet.

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[quote=“GJDS, post:77, topic:5604”]
Even beyond these methods, we are faced with even greater hurdles when we consider optical purity.[/quote]
That’s the problem with applying your applied orientation to basic science. Why would we, or anyone else, need to consider optical purity in the context of OOL?

[quote]I can post some of the reactions schemes in this paper if people are interested, but I think I have made my point.
[/quote]I’m not seeing your point and I don’t think reaction schemes would help.

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The comments made by some persons render this exercise futile and down-right pointless. It is for this reason I tend to make a few remarks and when the angst begins, I prefer to avoid the waring culture adopted by some ideologically motivated comments.

It is not difficult to question the likelihood of conditions in a young earth that cannot compare to those adopted in the laboratory, as I posted. Just talk of CN compounds formed from lightening, as an example. The natural conditions would lead to dissolving CN (radical or ionic) to form HCN which is water soluble and almost certainly would react with bases such as Na, K, Ca, Mg oxides, hydroxides and carbonates. These reactions are far more likely than the organic ones postulated in laboratories. Add to this the dilution of small amounts of precursors in large amounts of water (be it rain, lakes, rivers, the sea) and we already are faced with vastly different conditions than discussed in these papers. My comments are on a simple molecule, and to a simple step, which would be understood at undergraduate level chemistry - why not address such points instead of continuing irrational and rude responses?

The extreme comments made in this site are at odds with the confessed speculation made by many of the authors of papers dealing with organic synthesis and attempts to relate these to origins of life. For heavens sake, disagree if you must, but to claim gracious dialogue in these comments is to indulge in self-deception.

Added to original post: Perhaps for the sake of clarity, I should point out that in the paper I referred to, the precursors ae HCH and an aldehyde. Chemistry that is well understood makes the possibility of HCN existing in realistic concentrations very low - it is also well understood (for >50 yrs) that oxidation of aldehydes will occur in the presence of oxygen. This is accelerated in the presence of metals oxides such as Mn, Cr, Cu. This chemistry is easily accessible and non-controversial. This means the precursors postulated are unlikely to be available in natural setting. The organic synthesis reported by OOL studies are clearly artificial and do not reflect conditions we would anticipate in nature. Even if some insist that artificial conditions are relevant, if oxygen and metal oxides were added to their artificial mix (found in great abundance in nature), the chemical kinetics will favour the formation of metal cyanides and carboxylic acids from precursors of HCN and aldehydes. If we cannot rationalise the formation of precursors at reasonable concentrations, we cannot postulate plausible reaction pathways - this is self evident.

Again I emphasise this chemistry is well established and can be found in any relevant text book and undergraduate chemistry courses. It is difficult to understand such angst and aggressive responses posted on this site to these facts of science.

@Casper_Hesp

This line of objection, however, is much like those other new-comers … who say something can’t be done without God’s guidance (fair enough) … and then seem to conclude by saying: and I don’t think God guided that!

Isn’t this like trying to argue both sides at the same time?

I am a BioLogos supporter. I’m SUPER interested in God’s ability to guide Evolution through the patchy and difficult processes. AND I think He did so.

If @GJDS also thinks so … then how can we be at odds?

We are at odds only when someone says … and God did it all at once, and in Six days… and they insist on this without any evidence for it at all.

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