Acceptance of differences can never become acceptance of errors. Unity in diversity presupposes the agreement on fundamental truths.
There can be no unity, sadly, if and when there are sustained disagreements on fundamental truths of the faith.
John Fisher and Thomas Moore didn’t go with the flow to appease Henry VIII.
First these fundamental Truths have to be agreed upon.
Oh dear. That involves humans.
Faith by consension is not faith, it is mindless.
Richard
But they were agreed upon until some people decided they knew better and other people followed suit.
By how many knowledgeable people. Once the people who knew Jesus passed on… even Paul…
Charisma is a wonderful thing, warned against by Scripture itself. So is human authority.
Matt 23: 8
But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.
That undermines the authority of any human, Pope downwards.
Richard
Humans have zero authority by themselves, the authority comes from the Holy Spirit, the Pope doesn’t have authority because he is a special human being, he has authority because, like the humble ignorant fisherman Peter, Jesus makes sure that his faith may not fail.
Luke 22:31-32
“But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."
But Peter did fail, several times!
Richard
In the end he confirmed his brothers, Jesus didn’t allow him to fail completely and to stay in the mud. The words about the gates of hell that will not prevail could hardly be clearer.
No, we don’t. That’s an example of the gross exaggeration I mentioned. There is no confirmation of the age, it hasn’t been kept exposed to the elements, it’s not a complete cross-section, I can’t find a definitive result that it contains myocardium[1], and even if it is an actual human heart, that doesn’t mean it was obtained from the Eucharist rather than a post-mortem.
Which is more likely:
(i) It’s a heart from a post-mortem,
(ii) It was misidentified by some-one who wanted it to be genuine (and was told it was a heart),
(iii) a miracle.
You might also consider why a dropped communion wafer that was left on the floor would transsubstantiate when boxes of them kept in cupboards don’t.
Then don’t use AI, because it frequently produces things way off the mark.
Several claims that it does appear to be mixing up analyses of the Lanciano relic with analyses of one from Argentina. ↩︎
With added emphasis:
Thomas More and John Fisher didn’t live in the first 400 years of Christian history, so whatever point you thought you were making is completely misaimed.
I certainly don’t believe that they can be all forgeries, especially because they even happen within the orthodox church that it’s not interested in publicizing them and usually keeps them secret or just doesn’t talk about them. I don’t believe that are people around the world who take pieces of hearts, making sure that they belong to people with AB blood type on top of that, with the objective of creating a forgery. Much less, like I said, when they happen in communities that are very discreet about miracles, like the orthodox communities.
Yep. I didn’t read the Vinnie’s post Richard was replying to, which is why it was misaimed.
They don’t need to make sure they have AB blood type since, as per my original point, that’s the result produced when analysing something that doesn’t contain blood.
If you don’t believe people are willing to deliberately create forged relics from human remains, how do you account for Thomas Aquinas having two skulls?
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Not all Eucharistic miracles are like this. For example the Eucharistic Miracle of El Vergel, in Honduras in 2022. The hosts had been previously consecrated by the parish priest and were safely stored inside the ciborium (the sacred vessel), perfectly kept and never dropped on the floor. Upon opening the ciborium to distribute Communion to the faithful, the minister noticed that the linen cloth (the corporal) wrapping the hosts was stained with a red liquid, in other words it was “sweating” blood, remaining structurally intact in its bread form but becoming thoroughly saturated with the fluid.
Then the tests conducted by a scientific commission established by the local Bishop . Walter Guillén Soto confirmed that the substance was actual human blood, specifically of the AB positive blood type.
https://catholicweekly.com.au/q-and-a-with-fr-john-flader-a-miracle-in-honduras/
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In the case of the 2022 Honduras miracle, the DISA Test Toxicological Center explicitly certified two independent facts: first, that the substance was actual human blood, and second, that it belonged to the AB positive group.
First, they confirmed the presence of human hemoglobin, ruling out non-blood substances. Second, and most importantly, the fabric was exposed to tropical heat and humidity for months before testing, yet forensic analysis certified the sample was completely free of fungi, molds, or bacterial decomposition.
As I said the tests were not done by local priests, but at DISA Test (an accredited toxicological center in Tegucigalpa) and the analysis was conducted by Dr. Héctor Díaz del Valle and Dr. Claudia Coca (who happens to be the former Head of the Forensic Toxicology Laboratory for the Honduras National Police).
They officially certified two things: first, the positive match for human hemoglobin (not fake blood or plant resin). Second, they formally noted the clinical anomaly that despite the fabric spending over four months(from June to October 2022) in a hot, humid tropical environment before being tested, the sample showed a complete absence of the expected mold, fungal growth, or bacterial decomposition.
They definitely are, I just doubt that it can be regularly done throughout the world and especially in communities that basically keep these kinds of miracles secret or just don’t talk about them.
Much less I believe that Carlo Acutis, a kid who died at only 15 years old for acute promyelocytic leukemia, wasted the little time he had on total forgeries https://www.catholicworldmission.org/post/carlo-acutis-through-eucharistic-miracles .
Sure, some Eucharistic miracles throughout the world may well have been forgeries, but no, I definitely don’t believe all of them are.
Your source says nothing whatsoever about hemoglobin.
Do you have another source, or are you posting an AI hallucinatory mix-up?
That is not the point, and I think you know it.
No human (Jesus excepted) is or was perfect, so why should I believe the perfection of the early Church?
God does not force His will and does not, in general, put words into people’s mouths. If I preach God’s words they are my words my understanding, my theology (or the theology of The URC Church whom I represent)
There is no precedent to insist that any Christian, now or in the past has The words of God to be undisputed or believed without question. Even Scripture does not state as such.
What you are demanding is that I (et al) accept your views without question, because they are the views of the historic church. There is no precedent for that insistence or my compliance be it about the Eucharist, Scripture or the Catholic Church as a whole.
Christian unity will only be achieved by acceptance, not compliance or uniformity of belief.
Richard
Saying a laboratory isolated “AB+ human blood” implies two distinct steps in modern forensics: first, they performed a specific confirmatory test for human hemoglobin to rule out false positives or non-blood substances; and second, they successfully identified the A, B, and Rh antigens. There is no biochemical shortcut; a certified forensic laboratory like DISA Test (directed by court-level experts) runs these as separate mandatory protocols precisely to eliminate any risk of bacterial cross-reactivity.
So it was just consequential.
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No I’m not demanding anything, I’ve simply shown what the early Church did for a millenium. At a certain point some people thought they knew better and now here we are with 47.000 different denominations, blessing of gay marriages, queer theology etc etc, but I’m literally not demanding anything, I’m just stating what the early Church did (and i’ve quoted multiple historians, linking the sources as well) as well as the fact that it wasn’t the RCC to go astray from grassroots Christianity. That’s all.
Some things can be evalued historically. Stating that the Church in the first millenium believed this or that, or stating that it was unified and that even the eastern fathers were loyal to Rome (as shown here Salvation without Christ - #125 by 1Cor15.54 where I quoted many of them. linking the sources in the process) are historical evaluations, they are either right or wrong on an historical basis. This doesn’t mean infringing upon the sacred right of everyone to believe what they want to believe.
Perhaps you do not read what you write from the viewpoint of the reader. You might not be so indignant if you did.
Richard
No I get what you mean, but I was merely making an historical point. Which in my view is valuable because the original theory was that the Church had actually departed from The truth and the reformers returned to grassroots Christianity. This is very much an historical claim (I mean the theory that the Church actually deformed some truths of the faith and that the reformers were restoring it to its original purity) which can be evalued on that basis.