Christology and Trinity

The church fathers clearly expressed the embryo of what will be later taught as the 5 Solas. The issue of indulgences proved that the Roman Church no longer stood up with what the Church Fathers professed.

Peter never blasphemed the Lord during His ministry as far as I know. Sedevacantism argue that Vatican 2 has been drifting from a doctrinal standpoint. And I understand you’re not going to change your viewpoint for me because Catholicism is very important to you. All I’m asking is to be heard without being told that I’m ‘victim of modernity’ cause I’m not, I’m only upholding Biblical authority.

I have no issue with Jesus speaking in a symbolic way.

Am I though?

What I said

The issue of indulgences proved that the RCC at the time was facing a very serious corruption problem. But when did it become a doctrinal problem?

Also the fathers were very far from following something compatible with Sola Scriptura, for example. They believed that the Church had the last word on doctrinal matters.

This has been recognized in multiple academic works such as Biblical Scholarship and the Church, from Allan K.Jenkins

https://api.pageplace.de/preview/DT0400.9781317174370_A30904122/preview-9781317174370_A30904122.pdf from page 29 of the pdf: “The approach to the interpretation of scripture which Origen set out systematically for the first time articulated parameters for interpretation that were still firmly in place at the beginning of the sixteenth century. In particular, interpretation was subordinate to the authority of the church’s magisterium set out in its rule of faith, and its practice required skilled theologians and teachers able to penetrate its hidden spiritual meaning,”

And just a two pages earlier at page 27 of the same pdf: “The controlling guide for interpretation was for Origen, like Clement of Alexandria and others before him, the church’s rule of faith ‘which was delivered by Jesus Christ to the apostles and which they delivered in succession to their followers who teach the heavenly Church’.36 At that time a number of essential doctrinal issues which were later to be dealt with by councils of the church had yet to be resolved, and Origen’s views on some of these opened him up to later charges of unorthodoxy.37 Nevertheless the principle he affirmed of the church’s supreme authority in interpretation by means of the rule of faith remained fundamental and unquestioned until the sixteenth century.“

Also the renowned historian J.N.D Kelly from the book early Christian dogma at page 40: ““Like Irenaeus, Tertullian is convinced that Scripture is consonant in all its parts, and that its meaning should be clear if it is read as a whole. But where controversy with heretics breaks out, the right interpretation can be found only where the true Christian faith and discipline have been maintained, i.e. in the Church. The heretics, he complained,’ were able to make Scripture say what they liked because they disregarded the regula”.

The concept that the interpretation of the Church could be disregarded or actively opposed was alien to the Church fathers.

He denied Him three times and only became a staunch disciple after seeing the risen Jesus. Many popes didn’t need to see the risen Jesus in order to be devoted and fierce disciples of Him.

Also those words you are citing as blasphemy can actually be read in an orthodox manner, as Vinnie proved. Certainly Pope Francis didn’t have quite a way with words though, that’s for sure.

It clearly was a doctrinal problem.

‘No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money’

Matthew 6v24

Iranaeus of Lyon and Augustine made it crystal clear.

“But who can fail to be aware that the sacred canon of Scripture, both of the Old and New Testament, is confined within its own limits, and that it stands so absolutely in a superior position to all later letters of the bishops, that about it we can hold no manner of doubt or disputation whether what is confessedly contained in it is right and true; but that all the letters of bishops which have been written, or are being written, since the closing of the canon, are liable to be refuted if there be anything contained in them which strays from the truth, either by the discourse of some one who happens to be wiser in the matter than themselves, or by the weightier authority and more learned experience of other bishops, by the authority of Councils; and further, that the Councils themselves, which are held in the several districts and provinces, must yield, beyond all possibility of doubt, to the authority of plenary Councils which are formed for the whole Christian world; and that even of the plenary Councils, the earlier are often corrected by those which follow them”

"I have learned to yield this respect and honor only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. . . . As to all other writings, in reading them, however great the superiority of the authors to myself in sanctity and learning, I do not accept their teaching as true on the mere ground of the opinion being held by them; but only because they have succeeded in convincing my judgment of its truth either by means of these canonical writings themselves, or by arguments addressed to my reason. (Letter to Jerome [no. 82])

“Among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life. (On Christian Doctrine 2.9)”

Peter denying Christ, which Jesus prophesied, isn’t the same as the vicar of Christ blessing Pachamama or affirming Jesus made Himself the devil. It sure would help if what He taught was biblically grounded to begin with. Just saying.

‘For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.’

2 Corinthians 5v21

No offense, really; but there is an awful lot of cherry picking here, and I will soon show it to you.

Just to point out, that you quote all manner of human authorities on an equal par with Scripture and seem surprised when I do not do the same.

?

Whether the words originated from you or not, they are still human, and your own validation of them. Who are you? Who are they? Why should I care? (And why should you care that I do not).

However you look at it you are trying to make me comply with your views, (wherever they came from)

Richard

Yeah, you are very confused. Very confused.

I’ve quoted Jenkins and Kelly to show what is the historical perspective on what the Church fathers believed and you tell me that “i quote all manner of human authorities on an equal par with Scripture”.

If that is not confusion I don’t know what is.

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Do as you please, but I’m already at peace with the fact that you’re not going to change your viewpoint neither you will change mine on Biblical authority. Let’s agree that we don’t share the same views about the early Church Traditions whether modern Catholic traditions drifted away from original Christian doctrines.

:smiling_face_with_sunglasses:

I guess it is a matter of perspective.

I say what I see. If I am wrong, then tell me that your beliefs are not the same as humans of old and you consider their authority greater than any other. You trot out Catholic documents as if they were Law, and noted “Theologians” as being special.

Why must i trust them? Why must i agree with your views of both them and God. Why do you think there is only one valid view and only one true valid Church?

I am not in the least bit confused. Not about what I believe or about what you have told me. You have made yourself very clear.

Richard

Ok where do we start?

Let’s start from the beginning. And yes, those quotations are genuine, but they don’t prove Sola Scriptura, they prove something narrower: Augustine believed that canonical Scripture has a unique, divinely guaranteed authority and inerrancy that the writings of individual bishops do not possess, and a Catholic has no reason to deny that. Augustine says exactly this in Letter 82.3 when he reserves complete freedom from error to the canonical books. (Augustine, Letter 82.3.)

But Sola Scriptura means more than “Scripture is uniquely inspired and inerrant.” In its classical Reformed formulation, Scripture is the sole infallible rule for the Church: the whole counsel of God necessary for faith and life is contained in or deducible from Scripture, nothing is to be added as a binding tradition, and the final judge of religious controversies is the Holy Spirit speaking in Scripture. See Westminster Confession of Faith 1.6 and 1.10.

The problem is that Augustine explicitly accepts apostolic traditions not contained in Scripture.

In the very same work from which the quotation about Scripture being superior to bishops and councils is taken, On Baptism Against the Donatists, Augustine defends the Church’s practice of not rebaptizing heretics: he says that this practice comes, in his judgment, from apostolic tradition, and he places it among things preserved universally by the Church even though they are not found in the apostles’ writings or in later councils. This is On Baptism II.7.12.

That is extremely important, as Augustine simultaneously believes:

  1. Canonical Scripture possesses an authority and inerrancy unique to itself.
  2. Authentic apostolic traditions can exist outside the written apostolic texts and can be preserved authoritatively by the universal Church.

Those two propositions are perfectly compatible with a Catholic doctrine of Scripture and Tradition. They are not equivalent, nor are they compatible, with the Reformation principle of Sola Scriptura.

Augustine makes the point even more explicitly in Letter 54 to Januarius: he distinguishes practices prescribed in canonical Scripture from other things Christians hold on the authority “not of Scripture, but of tradition,” and says that universal traditions may reasonably be regarded as instituted by the Apostles themselves or by plenary councils. (Letter 54.1.)

The quotation from On Christian Doctrine II.9 doesn’t change this.

Augustine certainly says that all matters concerning faith and Christian life can be found among the things plainly taught in Scripture, and thht is strong evidence for what theologians often call the material sufficiency of Scripture.

But it It does not establish Sola Scriptura as the exclusive rule of faith. In fact, immediately before that passage, Augustine says that in determining which books belong to the canon, the Christian should follow the judgment of the Catholic Churches, giving particular weight to Churches associated with the Apostles. (On Christian Doctrine II.8–9.)

Augustine clearly teaches the unique inspiration, inerrancy and superior authority of canonical Scripture, but he doesn’t teach that no authoritative apostolic Tradition exists outside Scripture. And Irenaeus explicitly appeals to Scripture, apostolic Tradition and episcopal succession as means by which the apostolic faith is preserved.

Therefore saying that “Irenaeus and Augustine made Sola Scriptura crystal clear” is simply too strong. It works only if Sola Scriptura is redefined to mean merely “Scripture is uniquely inspired and superior to later human writings.” But that proposition is not distinctively Protestant at all.

Indeed, Catholic doctrine itself teaches that Scripture is divinely inspired and that the Magisterium is not above the Word of God but serves it, while Scripture and Apostolic Tradition belong to the one apostolic deposit transmitted to the Church. See Vatican II, Dei Verbum 9–10.

So Augustine can legitimately be cited in support of the supreme and unique status of inspired Scripture. He cannot legitimately be cited as “crystal-clear” evidence that the early Church rejected authoritative unwritten Apostolic Tradition. His own writings explicitly say otherwise. Augustine regards Scripture as the supreme inspired norm, while regarding the Church’s rule of faith and the authoritative judgment of the universal Church as normative for resolving doctrinal disputes over its interpretation.

Irenaeus is even clearer on this point. So clear that I find it baffling that you cite him in order to prove Sola Scriptura.

In fact, in Against Heresies 3.2 CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.3 (St. Irenaeus) he said: “Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the **faith**preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority [potiorem principalitatem].”

Irenaeus explicitly recognized the doctrinal authority of the Roman Church with a force that no modern Catholic Bishop would ever use.

When you find the word sola scripture or a list of what books constitute the Canon inside the canon, feel free to share it. The Catholic Church fully subscribes to Biblical Authority. Dei Verbum:

11. Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.(1) In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)

Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation. Therefore “all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind” (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text).

The church knows we cannot disconnect tradition from the equation, otherwise the Bible is lost unless you subscribe to a magical Christianity or a blind faith where this book (which one specific cult defines as having x books and another y books and so on) fell from heaven. The Church also sees itself as established by Jesus and led by the Holy Spirit. It is the continuation of apostolic Christianity. Sola scripture doesn’t tell us who is the arbiter of what scripture means or who is continuing apostolic succession. It leaves us arguing over everything. Far from giving us the Holy Spirit and remaining with us forever (what Jesus said), we are abandoned to our own literary skills as individual exegetical conquistadors.

There are three prongs to the RCC’s interpretation and I have been defending the Real Presence (not transubstantiation) only using two of these prongs. So maybe you have not formally denied the real presence but you have highlighted “remembrance” and mischaracterize what I am doing as defending transubstantiation. Following the Church, that is my preferred explanation. I don’t need to argue that to show that the Real Presence is Christian Orthodoxy and everything else is an aberration. I share Luther’s view that denying the real presence is a fanatical view and prioritizes human reasoning over the actual word (and Word) of God. I have offered defenses of this view partially via the universal testimony of the Church (the whole Christian Churxh not just the RCC) before this belief was made up in the 1500s, a millennium and a half late to the party.

Vinnie

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We can certainly agree to disagree, but whether Augustine and Irenaeus actually said anything genuinely compatible with Sola Scriptura is something that can be evaluated objectively from their writings.

And I have to say, Irenaeus would probably be the very last Father I would cite in support of Sola Scriptura, given what he actually says about apostolic tradition, episcopal succession, and especially the Church of Rome (If a modern Catholic bishop said something like that today, he’d probably be hauled in for a chat with the hierarchy and told to tone down the excessive Catholicism).

You’re engaging in a strawman argument I’m afraid. I’m quoting from the previous link

Sola Scripture does not mean that:

  • the Bible is the exclusive source of all theological knowledge;
  • the Bible is the infallible rule for every subject (whether chemistry, geometry, etc.);
  • the Bible is the only authority for each individual Christian, regardless of their historical circumstances

John Crysostom also posited the following :

There comes a heathen and says, I wish to become a Christian, but I know not whom to join: there is much fighting and faction among you, much confusion: which doctrine am I to choose? How shall we answer him? Each of you asserts, ‘I speak the truth!’ No doubt: this is in our favor. For if we told you to be persuaded by arguments, you might well be perplexed: but if we bid you believe the Scriptures, and these are simple and true, the decision is easy for you. If any agree with the Scriptures, he is the Christian; if any fight against them, he is far from this rule." John Chrysostom (4th century)

Right, but the early church was vastly different, as far as I can tell, from modern RCC (the Pachamama issue would have been a huge red flag). Anyways, Paul made it clear this is all pointless disputes for control.

‘What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?’

1 Corinthians 1v12-13

Iranaeus affirmed the sufficiency and authority of the gospel, that same Gospel where Jesus taught to pray in His name only. Also,

‘Catholics especially have made much of the doctrine of apostolic succession and the statement of Irenaeus that the bishop of Rome was the keeper of doctrine in his day. However, there are three problems with the belief that Irenaeus supported the infallibility of the pope or Roman priority. One is that he stressed that the writings of the apostles were superior to mere oral teachings. Another is that Irenaeus stated that every church established by the apostles (including his own) had similar access to traditions. The last is that, according to a letter quoted by church historian Eusebius, Irenaeus once rebuked Pope Victor for opposing celebration of the Passover. In other words, he wasn’t afraid of correcting the bishop of Rome or any other church leader if they opposed the scriptures. Thus, the apostolic tradition of which he spoke confirmed biblical doctrine taught to church leaders across Christendom; it couldn’t be used to support practices not discussed in the Bible or the dictates of one church over others. This is a misreading of Irenaeus.’

As for the church fathers, their viewpoint seems obvious to me.

"Whatever is not supported by the testimony of Scripture we reject as false.” – Gregory of Nyssa, De Cognitione Dei, pg. 46:1115, 380 AD

“Do not, I beg you, bring in human reason. I shall yield to Scripture alone.” Theodoret of Cyrus, Dialogue 1, 448 AD

“The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.” St. Athanasius, 360 AD

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Sure if you cherry pick all the other instances where they affirmed also the importance of Tradition their viewpoint seems very obvious. Every viewpoint can be validated by cherry picking.

Like I said it all depends on whether you consider that the Church never drifted away from original Christian doctrines.

Iraeneus literally said: “it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority [potiorem principalitatem].“ CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.3 (St. Irenaeus)

And even Augustine certainly viewed (and rightly so) Scripture as possessing a supreme and unique status, but he also affirmed multiple times the importance of the rule of faith and of the Church in settling the disputes with heretics on doctrinal matters. And why this? Because no father would have denied that, while the Scripture was SUPREMELY important, the correct interpretation of it belonged to the Church.

Many people confuse corruption issues with doctrinal issues. See the example of the indulgences. That was a very clear and very bad example of corruption, no doubt, but nowhere did the Church say doctrinally that Christians must believe that you can buy your way to salvation.

We also had hypocritical Popes who fathered tons of babies, for that matter, but they never could have forced the rest of the Church and the faithfuls to believe that that was the right thing to do.

Doctrinal matters are a different stuff from disciplinar and corruption matters. Even the Pachamama stuff was a great sin on Pope Francis’ part but he certainly hasn’t changed the teachings of the Church, because he could not have.

Is it the purpose of Christianity, to argue over apostolic succession rather than preaching the Gospel? There are 5 solas, you may disagree with them but there is not much you or I can do about it. Luther never tried to make his own Church, RCC refused to hear him and the rest is History.

I was addressing a specific issue,

Jesus: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, **20 **and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Jesus says to preach all that he taught, not just an image of a Cross spanning some gulf between God and man as a way to get to heaven. The Eucharist is to participate in the good news of Jesus Christ. I don’t subscribe to pie in the sky formulations of individualistic Christianity where everything but the core message is an unimportant bureaucratic distraction.

Vinnie

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I’m not sure you want to enter that slope (with Mary, the saints, Jesus saying only God’s word is the truth ect), let’s stop here. It’s pointless and neither you or I will budge.