We shouldn’t be satisfied with less. Why does Desiring God (and that subtitle! ; - ) come to mind?
He who is having my commands, and is keeping them, that one it is who is loving me, and he who is loving me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:21
Francis Collins himself has said that he sometimes has doubts. Only fundamentalists need to be sure of everything at all times.
There are certainly things I wonder about and question why, but we’ve already talked about that, and it is fine to ask why.
If anyone is having a difficult time and asking “Why me?”, consider “Why not me?” Then turn to God.
A Muslim man in Iraq became a Christian through reading this:
One Thousand Gifts: A Dare to Live Fully Right Where You Are
It’s a good book on perspective, and it starts with the author’s toddler sister being killed by a delivery truck in their farmyard when the author was only five.
Beautifully said in my opinion.
In my experience those that doubt God are more “suited”? to believe in the end or to serve the others than those who dont.
Christians who generally dont doubt a thing are either fundementalists or they put themselves on a high pedestal,when in reality they are the worst sinners.And then theyll put the “only God can judge me” label on them.
Good to see you!
George Macdonald, one of my favorite writers, wrote, “You doubt because you love truth.”
And once you’ve found it and have been reassured of it and have confidence in it, why should you still doubt?* Please still make the distinction between between a doubting faith (or faithless doubting) and asking why.
I’m afraid that maybe I have come off as sounding self-righteous, but anyone who has been around here for any time (like a less than a day ; - ) knows that I certainly have no righteousness of my own!
*For example, does anyone who has become convinced of the truth of the antiquity of the cosmos ever doubt that it is indeed very old?
Dale, I know you are a very kind man.
I am sorry, but I have never had a proof of God’s presence that has ultimately shown me in a convincing way.
I hope, but I do not have assurance.
If we asked someone who is Muslim or Hindu to reconsider their faith, and they said, “but my Scripture tells me not to doubt,” would we consider their stance wise?
Such response does not seem reassuring to those who have concerns.
Again, I know you are a great person, and I appreciate learning from you on this forum; but also interacting in other ways.
Randy
No, of course not.
I can only adjure you to desire a sure knowledge! I hope you have seen enough objective evidence here to convince you that God exists, but your “if” earlier is concerning.
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.
Hebrews 11:6
Please, be an earnest seeker and do not be easily satisfied with only an if and comfortable rationalizations!
Spurgeon has helped me quite a bit over the decades – this one is pertinent: Morning, September 3rd (Spurgeon's Devotional)
Also recall my prayer when after reading through it several times I realized that I had not owned and internalized it:
I love you, LORD, my strength.
Psalm 18:1
My prayer at first was “Do I love you, Lord? Help me to love you!” It was soon answered and I could say “I love you, Lord. Help me to love you more!”
If you don’t want to love him, that would be an issue. But then the prayer could be “Help me to want to love you!”
Christians and doubt
@Dale, maybe it’s the title of your OP, but I think there’s more in this thread, that feels like a kick in the teeth to Christians, who are already struggling with doubt. My impression of your participation around this Forum is that you want to be encouraging and helpful, but I don’t think this thread at all meets those goals.
Not only are we agonizing internally at one time or another, or over very long periods, but now we are judged by a brother for not struggling properly. This doesn’t reflect Jesus’ work with those who struggled with doubt or his recognition that Christians who came later would not have Him right before them to verify their faith.
If I were the Life-Verse-choosing kind of Christian, Mark 9:24 would be mine:
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”
And Jesus does/has/will again.
He even dealt gently and pragmatically with Thomas, his own disciple, who had lived with him, seen first hand the evidence of his divinity and power, and who nevertheless doubted the resurrection:
John 20:24-29
24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”
26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
In Hebrews we are exhorted to “fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith”. This is something you can help people do. Remind people of Jesus and his work and love. Preach grace, when that is what’s needed, rather than crushing those who are already crushed, with law and more law and yet more law. Magnify and placard our Hope. And let the Holy Spirit do the work He is equipped to do.
In the 16th century, the mystic known as St John of the Cross wrote “Dark Night of the Soul,” exploring his own despair and doubts.
On the other hand, when the LDS give a testimony, they don’t say “I believe.” They say “I know.”
(e.g. “I know that the Church is true.”)
Questioning the LDS faith is discouraged. If a married LDS questions the faith, that is interpreted as a sign of marital infidelity.
So they’ve pretty much made certainty one of their bylaws. But any denomination or doctrine can append certainty to the views they hold. I have seen amongst unbelievers all the time and seemingly must be a core element in apologetics curriculum.
I love that – thanks for this reminder. It sounds like the man did as much as he could do and simply asked for help with the rest. Jesus didn’t rebuke the man or tell him to just try harder to have more faith. I’m sure I have often been too quick to apply my own Western, individualistic, “pick yourself up by your bootstraps” mentality to faith.
Great discussion. I think one of the big conflicts in evangelical Christianity is whether right beliefs give salvation, or if righteous living is key. Jesus speaking of the sheep and goats would seem to support the latter more. And by righteous, I mean loving.
Thanks for all the pushback to help get a right perspective on this!
Yes. That is exactly what that first prayer was consciously modeled after. In fact it wasn’t even up to it, because I wasn’t sure I had any love for him.
(My first prayer before getting out of bed in the morning for at least probably the last month or so has been “Help!”)
Yes. We can dispense with the notion of my being “a great person” (thank you anyway, @Randy) or my putting myself on a pedestal (@NickolaosPappas ; - ) because it should be clear to all that I’m not and haven’t, with my quickness to snark and to even being mean, reacting ungraciously to disingenuousness, among several other things. So we know that whether or not I love anyone is an open question, and certainly not enough in any case. I will be glad to just be one of the crowd praising Sarah Smith of The Great Divorce renown.
But why shouldn’t we be aspiring to the certainty of truth like we do the antiquity of the universe? Why aren’t we encouraged by the factual accounts of Maggie, Rich Stearns and George Müller? The early Christians and many since have been certain enough that Jesus was ‘to die for’ and literally, hardly being fundamentalists, @beaglelady. Is this Christianity thing just a head-trip, an inconsequential pastime on a forum for amusement? No, and certainly.
verifying is great! is doubt not a door to a room of discussion? doubt has been referred to as a “seed of doubt”. it can lead to other things - disbelief, research, denial… doubt of people is great, when it comes to doubt of a “Heavenly Father” things get tricky. doubt exists and is contagious- just awaiting reaffirmation. “doubt” is “questioning” with a negative tone.
Welcome, and your comment is too. ; - )
I’ve started the task of looking for the uses of the word know with respect to our knowing in the NT to try and preclude false positives from the simplistic searches on the just the word by itself that I presented earlier, but your post prompted me to look for the word doubt as well. It’s a short enough list that it doesn’t require prior parsing, not there aren’t certainly questions to talk about!
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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