Christian Universalism

Once I realized what Christian Universalism actually referred to I wasn’t interested any more.

Originally I did think it meant something like your first bullet point: " * The belief that all roads lead to God."

But of course that isn’t very clear either. I would have preferred to say it was the belief that God can be worshipped by many names and traditions, both within and outside of Christianity.

But if it just comes down to who is entitled go to the “good place” when they die instead of the place of punishment, I just can’t take that seriously.

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I think … maybe to be more fair … most who would accept the label “universalist” probably don’t actually take that question seriously either - at least not as typically conceptualized.

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That seems to be the focus of many Christians and is something i have been preaching against for a long time now.

Is what Universalism is about. Heaven and hell are a side issue that is used as motivation because it is self serving.

If your only reason for being a Christian is to go to Heaven you are no better than a person accepting Pascal’s wager.

Christianity, IMHO, is about a way of life and living not the end of it.

Richard

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Universalism does not emerge in the collected words of Jesus. It can only be cherry picked, interpolated, read in[to] them, extrapolated. Paul too. If there were an intentional ground of infinite, eternal nature, whose intention included the transcendent, it couldn’t not be universalist however.

Perhaps pragmatism is not a good theological tool but…

It is self defeating to admit that any other path or belief is valid
and/or
Hyperbola is an accepted form of teaching.

Either way, it is not surprising that Universalism is not promoted by any religion, let alone Christianity (Perhaps Buddhism might be the exception?)

Richard

I though Hyperbola was a mathematical concept? [; )]

But yes, belief is the problem.

Hyperbole in his hard sayings does not explain the absence of universalism in Jesus’ collected words.

Silly mistake. I am sure you knew what I meant.

As Jesus used it, why do you limit it?

The first statement is still valid and unarguable.

The fact is that it might depend on which part of the Doctrines Universalism could or could not apply.

Does God Offer forgiveness to all, or only those who both recognise and acknowledge Him? (And specifically Jesus as well)

There are several side issues just from that specific understanding alone

Oh if it was only so simple.
.
RIchard

I should have added the wink above at the time.

‘As Jesus used it, why do you limit it?’

How do I limit it? I’m not aware of so doing.

‘The first statement is still valid and unarguable.’

This? ‘Perhaps pragmatism is not a good theological tool but…

It is self defeating to admit that any other path or belief is valid
and/or
Hyperbola is an accepted form of teaching’

I grew up on a pragmatic God. It was the only way to theodicize Him.

I’m sure any belief that gets you through the day is valid.

And yes hyperbole is one of many forms of teaching.

And no, it’s obviously not in any dominant Abrahamic religion’s interest to be universalist. Fear is the key.

So how do we end up with a God of Love?
Isn’t that an antithesis?

Richard

Not in Christianity – grace is the key. It’s the key in the Old Testament, in the word חֶסֶד (khe-sed)which can be translated all sorts of ways but each revolves around grace; and it;s the key in the New Testament in the word χάρις (KHA-riss), which can also be translated in various ways but they all revolve around grace.

Preaching fear is an aberration – as Paul says, it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance!

I’ve no idea. It can’t be it done just using the the Bible. And there is no basis in nature for it. Actually I did have an idea, and it’s apotropaion. Warding off evil.

Yes I know the words. And the interpolation and extrapolation of them in to and beyond the dark spaces of the Bible.

Then you know that “fear is the key” is erroneous.

How so? How do you know that I know this? Despite my knowing that I know the opposite?

Fear is the key in the crippled one hand clapping of grace. In hearing it when it isn’t there.

It should be in us, of us, of course. It is. Naturally. Given enlightened self interest. The key to grace being gratitude. And I fully understand the need for faith to express both. Meaningless[ness!] can be hard to overcome.

Grace has no key, nor validation. Grace is given freely. How can you fear a God of grace and love?
The fear of God maybe the beginning of wisdom but it is not the completion of it. Wisdom sees past the natural fear and understands that despite His awesome and unlimited Power God does not wield it or enforce it.
God approaches Us. How an He do that if fear comes before Him? He stands at the door and knocks, He does not huff and puff and blow the house down.
If you fear God then you do not know Him.
He calls us children not underlings or slaves, and we call Him Father, not Sir.

Richard

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It does for me Richard. And yes I receive grace freely and try to reciprocate, and pass it on. I don’t fear God at all.

It is not free if you have to do something to get it.

Why must grace rely on grattitude?

A gift is a gift whether it is appreciated or not, or thanked for, or not.

Do you think that God does not forgive If we do not say thankyou?

Of the 10 lepers healed, would only the one who came back have stayed healed?

Why does anyone want, let alone require thanks? Doesn’t Christ preach against such a motivation?

isn’t God better than that?

Richard

Edit.

Could it be that the acknowledgement is for our benefit rather than God’s?
IOW we have to own it to believe it?

(a) Correct.
(b) It’s gracious to be grateful. It’s the secret of happiness.
(c) Correct.
(d) Not my counter. I can’t compute the forgiveness of God. Unless we’re doing it.
(e) Why do you ask?
(f) It’s gracious. You tell me.
(g) Again, not my counter. Love would be gracious and grateful and worth thanking.
(h) see (g) Yes, graciousness, gratitude is its own reward. I own that.

So, thank you.

Not sure you got some of the principles i was suggesting, but I will not persue it further.

Nice exchange, thank you

Richard

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Good man Richard. Good on you. Most gracious, in the face of my robust minimalism.

Please do pursue. I’m not aware of not getting any suggested principles.

And thank you.