Christian physicalism, What if the resurrection is just another me, but like a clone?


(George Brooks) #101

@Totti

I don’t accept your rendition. I believe once your body degrades past a certain point, you are no longer “sleeping”, you are dead. Dead. Really dead.

If you want to maintain the idea of sleeping, in connection with the preservation of your personality, then you have to accept a non-material definition of the personality - - i.e., the “soul”.

Now, the “soul” could be sleeping if you like. But it exists “outside of the 3 dimensions” in that the soul does not occupy space as we understand it.

This view of the “soul” can be compared to “light” and the “light bulb”. When the current is switched off, there is no light. You could say that the light is sleeping if you like. And if someone crushes the bulb, or if it falls apart on its own, you could still argue that the “light” is sleeping.

Or… you can imagine a “Cosmic Ziplock Bag of Spirit” … (again, not physically operating in our 3 dimensions)… and it can travel around on its own, if permitted or designed to do so. I believe this latter scenario is more consistent with Theist scenarios, while the former one may well be the more logical one for non-Theists to prefer. It’s hard to speculate on the matter.

If by “sleeping” you (or some evangelicals) are simply using a familiar word in a special technical sense, then you should understand the limitations of the technical sense: you or they would be using “sleeping” to describe: “the state of unconsciousness that occurs when the body is no longer able to maintain consciousness.”

Sometimes the body can no longer maintain consciousness because, let’s face it, the body is dead! So calling that time “sleeping” seems a little flimsy to me.

To me, “sleeping” means temporary unconsciousness - - in a body that has been alive the whole time, or where the medical definition of death was only met for a very short time, with no or minimal damage to the brain."

Of course, you or others could argue that from God’s viewpoint, the time that Lazarus was unconscious was trivial (in God’s view) and so “sleeping” is an acceptable use. And I could agree, but not if I’m going to be assailed by the disappointment of a person, revived by God, into a brand new body - - who complains rather ardently, that it seems the renewed person is not genuinely the old person and that some untoward “cloning” has been inflicted upon their being.

If it is still a problem for you, and you think you are up to the task of chastising God for making you a clone, instead of letting your body remain uncorrupted and changed for centuries while you “sleep” - - then you are left with the soul as a separate entity, that can travel and transmigrate as conditions allow. Oh… and that separate entity, the soul, can also sleep as well… and not have to worry about the indignity of being “cloned”!


(Phil) #102

Them there is the deal in Matthew 27:
52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

Not real sure what to think of that.


(Luca) #103

Well change sleep with death.
Do you take the first or the second one?


(Luca) #104

I see what you are saying yes.


(George Brooks) #105

I have always preferred the idea of the soul as being a package that exists without a need for a body.

Not very Egyptian, is it? But even the Egyptians only needed the corpse as a place for the personality to sleep within … to have a known anchor. When awake, the Egyptian version of the personality or soul is roaming another dimension to great satisfaction !


(Luca) #106

Ahh yes i see. I dont know much about the way egyptians thought about their soul.


(George Brooks) #107

Coming up, @Totti !

Egyptian Components of the Animus and the Personality

Ib (the Heart), formed from one drop of blood from the heart of the child’s mother’s mother. It was the soul more than anything else, because this is what was weighed against the Feather of Maat. Seat of all thinking and feeling, memories, love, sadness and courage.

Sheut (one’s shadow) A person’s shadow or silhouette, Sheut (šwt in Egyptian), is always present. It was compared to statues, which also seemed to have a trace of one’s self, just like one’s shadow. Represented as a small human figure painted black. People of importance would have a box to store a part of their shadow would be placed upon, and then the box closed.

Ren (one’s name) As a part of the soul, a person’s ren (rn ‘name’) was given to them at birth and the Egyptians believed that it would live for as long as that name was spoken, which explains why efforts were made to protect it and the practice of placing it in numerous writings. Apparently it was the verbal container that would encompass all a person’s memories to be stored in the Ib/Heart. The cartouche, a magical rope, protected one’s name.

Bâ (one’s transformed self, a bird with a human head). In the Old Kingdom, the pyramids were called the “Ba of the Pharaoh”. It is sometimes depicted as a human-headed bird flying out of the tomb to join with the Ka in the afterlife. The Ba of Isis mated with Orisir. Louis Žabkar argued that the Bâ is not part of the person but is the person himself, unlike the soul in Greek, or late Judaic, Christian or Muslim thought. Makes for an interesting way of looking at the Pyramids … representing the very living body of Pharaoh. The Ba comes and goes between the tomb and the rest of the Cosmos.

Ka (the vital spark of life) The Ka was a spark equated to God’s breath of life. It was what made the difference between a dead person and a living person. Egyptians believed that Heqet or Meskhenet was the creator of each person’s ka, breathing it into them at the instant of their birth as the part of their soul that made them be alive. Food and drink made the Ka vigorous, but by consuming the metaphysical “kau” within the food.

Akh “(magically) effective one”), or one’s wisdom as a living thing (like the Holy Spirit of God represented wisdom to some Christians.


(system) #108

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