I think that many churches feel that if they give up on Genesis as description of God’’ actual creation then it helps to undermine the bible.The bible has become subjected to a lot of cultural and historical criticism and therefore to give in to sicience against Genesis helps to undermine the rest. The argument is that if we can’t trust the bible on Genesis creation then we can’t trust it on salvation either. I don’t go with rthat argument but I can see why people may be fearful in that way.
However I come back to some things I’ve learned from Bonaventure and Duns Scotus, that knowlege obtained in the world and about the world can be God’s truth. We can look at the world with our senses (and scientific instruments) and yet also recieve a different sort of truth from revelation in the scriptures.
We know that large mammals appeared on Earth… and we know these large mammals (like Elephants and Rhinos and Whales) appeared long after dinosaurs disappeared.
So, I have to say “busted” to your theory that animals haven’t changed… or haven’t changed a lot… or that there hasn’t been enough time for them to change a lot.
All 3 of these statements are proved false by the animal/fossil record.
I see you looked up my reference to the Nile River Canyon. However can you explain how the Nile River cut the canyon through multiple layers of sedimentary rocks that contain fossils (had to have been laid down before the river cut through them) and then the crystalline basement rock. That takes a lot of time. Then the Mediterranean Sea had to fill the canyon at which point the canyon would be full of sea water. Then the Nile River would have to gradually fill this canyon with the sediment carried from the head waters. It would take a very long time to fill the canyon and then generate the current delta that extends out into the Mediterranean. And all of this was accomplished in just 6000 rotations around the sun?
Looking at the word with senses is not like measuring it with scientific instruments. Duns Scotus helped form the basis for scientific measuring by modifying some of Thomas’ ideas about the nature of substance. Most scientific measuring units depend on the medieval notion that matter is not changing with with age.
The Creation account is the only version of beginnings that we confirm with telescopes. We see the actual words in Genesis confirmed in galactic history. However, what we see is not scientific at all. Only visible in all parts of the spectrum.
Victor
The Bible tells us the reason why marine fossils, such as hundreds of feet of chalk, lie under surface rocks with terrestrial fossils. Let’s review the grammatical creation account.
God’s wind dithered in unbroken continuity above the dark surface of the Earth as he continues to command light. Indeed, light dithers around within every atom continuing to go give it extension to this very day. Most of the verbs in the creation account show continuing actions, continuing commands and actions that repeat in unbroken continuity. Unfortunately Bible scholars stick to the Latin traditions when translating the creation account.
God continued to command a spreading atmosphere to form between waters above the spreading atmosphere and waters below the spreading atmosphere on day 2. Day two uses the noun form of the Hebrew word to continually spread out (raqiya) five times. Proverbs 8:28 tells us that the water firm was firm and in the form of fine material, put their when the geysers of the tehom were powerful. Evidently it was in the form of ice rings, like the ice rings found around the outer planets. We observe hot water and gases emerging from the surface of the moon Enceladus right now today. The water forms fine ice in space, exactly as we read of in the Proverbs 8:28 text.
Then the surface waters gathered into one place into multiple seas. However, there was only one continent (singular noun in Hebrew). Evidently the water (one of the smallest molecules even today) seeped underground so that the single continent appeared. Indeed, the continents fit together into a single land mass (on a much smaller globe) before the younger, modern oceans began to form. As Peter explained, the water used to stand with the land and this water later destroyed the land. Indeed, ancient oceans were largely sub-crustal residing in shallow seas, cave and lakes that existed only on the single continent. Hundreds of feet of marine chalk and limestone, sometimes with inclusions of chert that fell down from the roof of the cave, are found only on the continents. The remains of these ancient oceans contain billions of marine fossils attesting to the biblical statement that the multiple sees teemed with living things back in Adam’s era.
So why are surface rocks with terrestrial fossils found in canted layers above the marine layers? Again, the Bible alone has answers to Earth history. Over a period of 190 days, the sub crustal seas collapsed and the water cataclysmically roared out onto the surface as the ice also rained down. (The word for flood is a misnomer. In Hebrew it evidently means a violent flow, a violent washing - cataclusmos- in Greek). The modern oceans did not begin to spread out until after the cataclysm, as we read of in Psalm 104. What triggered this cataclysm. Some ancient people believed it was a close encounter with a planet.
The modern oceans are all younger than the continents and continue to spread out along a global expansion seam. Hot mineral laden water and lava emerge from the core of the Earth all along this global expansion seam as the modern oceans continue to spread out. Our planet continues to grow, exactly like the Bible states that God continues in unbroken continuity to lay the foundations fo the Earth (Zech 12:1) and continues in unbroken continuity to spread out the Earth (repeated 3 times in the Scripture).
Why are scientific stories of beginnings so different from the Biblical record? Science was founded on the false idea the Bible predicted for the last days: the notion that all things remain the same. Scientists “measure” synthetic things like mass and time with their medieval notion that matter is not changing itself. Yet we can see the past. The orbits accelerate outwards as the visible properties of all matter keep shifting as billions of galaxies grew out from the formless matter God created first.
How great will be the triumph of God’s creation record over science. Only the literal text of day four can explain the visible history of how the billions of galaxies formed without invoking pure magic, like a big bang and vacuums that adjust the frequencies of passing light.
So hundreds of feet of chalk, formed by a marine phytoplankton that requires sun light to form their exoskeleton were growing in caves? How does that work?
So during the global flood this sea water rushed up to the surface, right? So you are saying the terrestrial fossils formed over the roof of the caves containing the oceans, right? But when was there enough time to lay down the many layers of terrestrial fossils? It would have had to happen between the fall and the flood.
And I have asked it before but will ask again. How did these deposits get lifted from the sea floor to the surface of the unchanging continents?
Two thirds of the modern surface of the Earth is deep oceans. These oceans clearly did not exist in the early Earth. In fact, the modern oceans are all younger than the continents. The Earth spreads out in unbroken continuity above the waters (Psalm 136:6). Indeed, a global expansion seam keeps on spewing out basalt and hot mineral laden waters from deep in the Earth. The Biblical God says he is the one who continues in unbroken continuity to lay the foundations of the Earth (Zech 12:1) and to spread out the Earth in unbroken continuity.
Area of a sphere = 4 pi r^2. Therefore, the ancient Earth surface, which was a single continent according to Genesis chapter 1, was 1/3 = 4 pi r^2; 1/12pi = r^2 ; r^2= .02652 and r= 16% of the modern Earth’s radius. During Adam’s garden phase, the radius of the Earth was 16% of its modern radius.
So where did the ancient oceans reside? In the tehom, the great deep, that existed only on the single continent. The water stood with the land, as Peter described in 2 Peter 3. Later that water gushed out onto the surface, which is why canted layers of surface rocks overlay the chalks, limestone and shale of the ancient sub-crustal seas. The chalk grew in the great tehom, in hot water, in the sub crustal plural oceans that seeped underground on the first part of day three so that the singular dry land could appear. In that era it did not rain (a) because the Earth was surrounded by fine powdered ice (see the Hebrew text for Proverbs 8:28) and (b) there were no large surface oceans in that era. Why not? (c) Water came out of the ground, rivers flowed around the single land (not into the oceans) and there were no dessert plants (grass of the field) in that era. Why not? Genesis 2 explains why there were no dessert plants in that era. The entire surface of the earth was watered by by upwelling water back before there were any mountains or hills.
How did millions of cubic kilometers of chalk grow without sunlight, in the subcrustal oceans.? How do vast amounts of oil form deep underground without exposure to sunlight? Mineral eating bacteria live in hot water. Some bacteria eat sulfur, and so the oil they produce with their dead bodies is thick with sulfur. Oil is continuing to form in the hot waters that exist deep under the Earth even today. Oil wells that run out of oil, years later, are filled with oil again. Evidently the anaerobic bacteria that manufacture oil are still active in the hot water. Indeed, smokers spewing out hot water from deep in the Earth along the global expansion seam are loaded with bacteria. These bacteria eat minerals, not dead animals.
Chalks and limestone are the skeletal remains of the creatures that lived in the subcrustal oceans (tehom in Hebrew) that lived between day five and Noah. These anaerobic bacteria and tiny marine organisms formed the chalks and limestone that we only find on the former single continent, back when the Earth was 16% of its modern radius.
Understanding creation and Earth history with the ancient concept that everything is changing is diametrically opposite to trying to understand it by assuming the medieval Thomasian idea that matter is not changing itself.
We can see the past to the creation era. Every single galaxy clocks a different frequency than modern atoms, the most distant galaxies clocked much less than 10% of the frequencies of modern atoms. The orbits visibly accelerate outwards (in violation of every law of physics) as the volume of matter continues to increase and the light clock frequencies increase. Change and science are diametrically opposite ways of interpreting nature. The Biblical authors lived in the age when commoners understood the world with change, not science.
Chalk is not formed by anaerobic bacteria. Marine organisms would also require sunlight in order to live. Again, how does this happen in a cave? Life requires sunlight. And the chalk and limestone layers show there was a tremendous amount of life going on.
And I will ask yet again, how do you explain the Nile River Canyon?
Interesting. The would reduce gravity to 2.5% of it’s current value. I am not a physicist but that will have to make a big difference in the amount of atmosphere the earth could hold on to which is going to lead to a whole host of other problems,
Your question is nothing like the assertion that I posed. The key to my question is the sudden appearance of large mammals in the spectrum of life … your comments about marine fossils is quite beside the point.
Perhaps I did not make myself clear. The marine life and the terrestrial fossils both existed together, in parallel, living in the same eras. One environment was above the other. The ancient seas stood with the land, existing only on what are now continents that have completely dissimilar geology from modern oceans.
During Noah’s 600th year, the ice dust in space around the Earth fell as rain during a period of forty days. They may have been perturbed by a close encounter with a large planet. The sub-crustal seas, teeming with life and already extant millions of cubic kilometers of marine chalks and limestone began to collapse. The collapse of the sub-crustal seas was not instantaneous. Perhaps they fell like dominoes, one after the other over a period of 190 days. We find shale, chalks and limestone, remnants of those ancient seas, only on the continents. These are laced with marine fossils, trillions of them. The sub-crustal seas squirted out onto the land, covering the highest point of land by a depth of 15 cubits.
The fountains of the great deep burst forth and the underground seas
collapsed and flowed up onto the land. Where did the water go? A wide valley (the first modern surface sea) opened up as the mountains rose. (There is no mention of mountains before the flood). Psalms 104:6-9 “You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters were standing above the mountains. At Your rebuke they continued to flee, At the sound of Your thunder they continued to hurry away. The mountains (continued) to rise; the valleys continued) to sink down To the place which You established (perfect verb) for them. You set a boundary that they may not pass over, So that they will not return to cover the earth.” Notice that a wide valley opened up as the mountains rose so that the waters of the cataclysm flowed down into the wide valleys. This is known as the isostatic equilibrium that still exists between the deep seas and the continents, both of which float on plastic layers deep far under the surface.
Notice that ancient seas were very different from modern seas. They existed in different environments. The modern seas continue to spread out along a global expansion seam that keep on producing basalt and streams of hot water that come out of the center of the Earth.
None of these evidences fit Friar Thomas’ idea that matter is not changing itself as it ages, the basic, historical assumption of scientists.
This conversation is truly amazing to me. Since post #149, not counting quotes, the primary author has typed 5,284 words. That’s 18 pages, extracted from a mere 12% of the thread. If those rates are constant (no ironic reference to changing over time intended!), we’d be looking at about 42,775 words, or 143 pages. He could have actually written a book to publish, and instead of reading his 143 pages, we all could have read a nice solid work of quality literature.
Amazing.
Sorry, this post does not contribute to the thread in any way. Just me expressing my awe.
Your math here is incorrect. To find the earth’s new radius if it were to have 1/3 of its current surface area, you do NOT set
4pi r^2 = 1/3. You set 4pi r^2 = (1/3) 4 pi R^2
where r is the radius of your hypothetical small earth and R is the radius of the current earth. Then, solving for the ratio of r/R you get about 0.577 (the square root of 1/3 to be mathematical about it). It is then 58% of our current radius, not the 16% figure you give.
So … @Bill_II, if we play along with more “minor” assumptions, such as that this reduced earth still has the same density as our real one, its gravity would “only” be reduced to (1/3)g on this new smaller surface. Maybe that could help explain how the patriarchs lived so long. People age more slowly in lower gravity, right? Cue Einstein and relativity. Doesn’t time travel faster in lower-g environs? Come to think of it, that’s the opposite effect from what we want, and much too small --but we can shovel aside the less cooperative facts here.
In our lower-g world, people might grow taller too! --so we could work in an explanation for the Nephilim (the giants) of the day.
@Casper_Hesp, your file of bizarre claims may have its mother lode source right here. I think you’ve got your golden goose.
Merv, without some compensating physiology the patriarchs would have died younger, from osteoporosis and coronary artery disease, if studies of astronauts are any guide.
I am wondering, though, why @godsriddle assumes that the pristine original earth starts with no oceans when Genesis one clearly states that God created the oceans and the multitudes of creatures in them.
While you fixate on separating the terrestrial and marine life forms… you lose your ability to explain the separation between terrestrial dinosaurs and large terrestrial mammals.
When T-Rex lived… there were no elephants. Then T-Rex disappeared …and suddenly elephants appeared.
I’m looking forward to the crazy explanation you come up with to explain both kinds of problems simultaneously.
Actually that is what I had came up with initially, but his 16% figure is more fun so I decided to go with his “new math.” You do know that everything is changing right?
I wrote a report on isostatic equilibrium back in 1965. Imagine having to write a report with no Internet! Anyhow, the equilibrium is not between the seas and the continents. It is between the height of the crust and the depth to which it sinks into the mantle.
And since you brought it up, there is evidence of the isostatic rebound from the last ice age but not from any of the previously known ice ages. This would imply that those ice ages had to occur at a much greater time in the past from the most recent. How do you fit this into your 6000 year history? The global flood people say all of the ice ages happened at the same time.
Please notice in genesis day three, 1:9, , there were multiple seas that were flown together into one place. How can plural seas all be gathered into one place so the dry land appeared? The surface waters all seeped underground into one place, the tehom, but they were in scattered place, multiple seas, multiple deep lakes and underground caverns gathered into one place. Later, in Genesis 6, the tehom of the great deep broke up. The multiple seas that all existed underground in on the single continent began to collapse, perhaps like dominoes. Indeed, the continents all fit together onto a single land mass before the modern, younger oceans began to spread out. the ancient Earth was evidently a much smaller globe. The ancient seas loaded with chalks and limestone, exist only on the continents and continental shelves, not in the younger deep oceans
You can get the excellent book written by the Australian geologist S. Warren Carey used on Amazon for under $6 with shipping. He explains the extensive physical evidence for a growing Earth much better than I can.
Unfortunately, Young Earth Creationists (who are unlike Changing Earth Creationist) interpret bone breccias as Noah’s flood. They contain millions of shattered bones in low lying areas and caves. All the animal bones are mixed together, including marine creatures, large and small animals .
If you asked an ancient Greek where the bone breccias came from they would have a different answer from the YEC. During close planet encounters, that are also mentioned in the Bible, what we would call tidal tsunamis roared across the lowlands. Think of the recent tsunamis in Japan. According to the Greeks, this caused mountains to uplift and killed all that were in the lowlands.
A similar event is mentioned in Judges when the kakabiym (the planets) fought from their courses and a flood along the river Kishon swept away the chariots of Sisera.