Change and Time in Genesis

Faith & Science Conversation
125

Exactly.

It seems like another person who thinks there is one correct “biblical worldview” to which we must all ascribe, a single “true” worldview that encompasses the natural as well as the metaphysical. Better to just acknowledge that Scripture challenges all of our worldviews in the places we need to be challenged in order to live just and righteous lives. We can live just and righteous lives with any number of culturally and historically conditioned conceptualizations of the hows and whys of nature.

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126

I agree. Uncivilized Indians in the Amazon can trust Christ, stop fearing evil sprits and begin to live right. However, God alone understands nature, although he presents the evidence of his wisdom in Creation in many amazing ways.

Job 28:20-28 "Where then does wisdom come from? And where is the place of understanding? (21) "Thus it is hidden from the eyes of all living And concealed from the birds of the sky. (22) "Abaddon and Death say, ‘With our ears we have heard a report of it.’ (23) "God understands its way, And He knows its place. (24) "For He looks to the ends of the earth And sees everything under the heavens. (25) "When He imparted weight to the wind And meted out the waters by measure, (26) When He set a limit for the rain And a course for the thunderbolt, (27) Then He saw it and declared it; He established it and also searched it out. (28) “And to man He said, ‘Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; And to depart from evil is understanding.’”

There are two physics principles that have (in different eras) controlled how people have thought about natural history.

The ancient principle was change. They understood about long and short durations (the visible differences between a day, a lunation and a year). However, early languages did not use philosophical notions of a time contiuum (The Bible never mentions time per se in the original languages.) Their clocks and calendars were adjusted to fit the visible way nature continues to change. Their Earth histories were also about change. They claimed the planets once passed close to Earth and the first generation lived for vast geological ages in few days (as Job described in chapter 14 as their faces grew Neanderthal). Their metaphysical principle was that everything changes.

Science developed in the West where philosophers speculated about the existence of a time continuum. The fundamentalist principle of science is the medieval notion that matter is not intrinsically changing. Almost everything scientists define and measure depends on this historical, medieval principle, that the essence of substance is changeless.

Only the biblical principle of change is confirmed in visible cosmic history and teh geology of our planet. How? The continents fit together on a minuscule globe, just like the Bible states that the Earth spreads out in unbroken continuity above the waters. A global expansion seam runs through every ocean as the Earth continues to grow from a minuscule globe.

Telescopes see the only history that is visible as it happened. This is like looking at millions of frames of a movie arranged in order of distance (dimness, redder colors and unspiraled shapes - generally are the earliest galaxies). What we see is exactly what the Biblical God says is evidence for what he does. He commands us to lift up our eyes and look at the plural heavens. He is not now creating new stars. He is causally and continually calling the hosts of stars to come out, yet no star goes missing. (Isaiah 40:26). He continues to command the lights in the heavens to become spreading things (raqiya) beginning on the fourth day, exactly as we observe. Billions of galaxies grew out from the primordial state of matter as the visible properties of all matter keep changing (the orbits and the atoms change together).

Change and science are opposite worldviews. Biblical creation is not an epic myth. It is the only story of beginnings that is confirmed in the visible history of the galaxies. However, Westerners only know how to think with the philosophical notions of time and changelessness. This is why we can be sure that God will do as he promised, reduce the wise of this age to moros. On that day, the pride of man in their science will be abased and the LORD alone will be exalted. Why? He allows no one to come to faith through humanist wisdom, only the faith of a sinner who trusts his salvation.

Victor

127

I don’t buy that at all. First, I don’t think worldviews can have “opposites.” Second, I don’t believe that science views anything as changeless, and the discipline of science is demonstrably dynamic. Third, although I agree that God’s wisdom is written in creation/nature and God’s wisdom is revealed in Scripture, I do not agree that God’s wisdom about nature (i.e. scientific truth) is revealed in Scripture.

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128

But just 5 days ago you said,
“Change and time are opposite worldviews.”

What gives?

Also, referring to “uncivilized Indians” is highly offensive.

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129

A worldview is a set of beliefs and assumptions that a person uses when interpreting the world around him. The Apostle Peter predicted the worldview of the modern world (2 Peter 3:3-6). In the last days, people will obfuscate cosmic history (the evidence that the heavens came out long ago) and the watery history of our planet because they believe all things remain the same.

Not a single verse in the bible would have been interpreted with a scientific worldview by contemporary. Why not? The foundations for modern science were not complete until the popes promoted the writings of Friar Thomas in the West. Thomas accepted Bishop Augustine’s theory that God created time and is changeless. According to this theory, God sees all the future, which is fixed. (The Bible never mentions such things). By adjusting Aristotle to fit Catholic theology, Thomas invented the basis for Western science, that the essence of substance is changeless. (He could do this because Latin has a noun form of the verb to be, esentia: the intrinsic nature of what something is.) Scientists accept all sort of incidental changes, but they cannot contemplate matter continually shifting its properties throughout cosmic history. Why not? They used Thomas’ metaphysic to measure thousands of synthetic, undectable things like time and mass. The great structure of Western science depends on the notion that an atom today is essentially the same as it was yesterday.

Paul wrote that WE KNOW (all thinking people in his era understood) that the entire creation groans together and pains together. Even the philosophers accepted that atoms keep shifting their properties as their motions kept changing so that everything wears out with age (Lucretius). Paul wrote that the creation is enslave to phthora, the word the philosophers used for how everything is fundamentally changing with age. (Romans 8:21 -22.)

May I suggest that the reason modern Christians struggle with the age of the universe is: we to interpret the Bible with science (the notion that matter is not shifting its properties). All early people accepted change as real, back when they used nature’s changes to regulate life and to explain when thing happened. Change and science (which includes the concept of a time continuum) are opposite worldviews.

Victor

PS. The creation text we read in our Bibles follows the traditions from the Latin. You can read an attempt to understand creation from the Hebrew grammar here under the “Creation Days” menu. http://godsriddle.org/

130

What about radioactivity? Do you think that scientists have caught on to this?

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131

I just have a hard time accepting this evaluation of science when major scientific models (evolution and plate tectonics come to mind) clearly embrace change over time as the foundational explanation.

I suggest that the reason Christians struggle with the age of the universe is that they have been taught billions of years is incompatible with faithful reading of Scripture, it has nothing to do with imposing science on the Bible. It is the other way around. Science that doesn’t fit a particular reading of the biblical text must be denied.

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132

Some modern Christians struggle with the age of the universe, but plenty of us don’t have a problem with the age calculated by Scientists. Remember that the current Young Earth Creationism is a relatively recent development.

Matter is not shifting its properties? Again, think about radioactivity. And what is the origin of coal?

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133

As near as I can make out Herr Doctor Victor believes the Earth is at the center of the universe and as space expands outwards the “atomic clocks” change, which I think means the radiation emitted by electrons changing levels is different at different distances from the earth.

Also, BTW, Adam and Eve were Neanderthals which is really getting trippy.

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In radioactivity, an atom disintegrates. In does not change relationally. Relational change is parallel change where the properties of matter shift together in an orderly way. The Apostle Paul wrote that the creation hupotasso (submits in an orderly way) to degeneration. He used two orderly submission verbs and two together verbs to describe this universal corruption. (Romans 8:19-22). What we see in the history of the universe is that matter is always shifting its properties, the orbits, the atomic clocks and matter’s volume change in parallel as billions of galaxies become spreading things (Hebrew noun raiqya - see day four). Galaxies grew from point source beginnings, often growing into huge, dusty, local growth spirals as the visible properties of matter keep shifting relationally.

Let’s give a modern analogy for Friar Thomas’ metaphysics, upon which Western science was built. Water can freeze as ice and evaporate into vapor. Add salt, and water becomes salty. Boil black walnuts in water and you can make a brown dye for a Franciscan’s robe. Water combines with many materials to change its properties. Friar Thomas followed Aristotle in calling these changes accidental. In his metaphysic, substance is what cannot change its essence, its intrinsic properties, unless it ceases to be what it was. A modern analogy. Send a spacecraft loaded with water to fall into the Sun. In that case, water ceases to be. that is allowed in the Western metaphysics. However, we are trined since children to imagine that substances are NOT continually changing. This is why the fact that the continents fit together on a minuscule globe, without the younger modern ocean is anathema. Subduction (for which there is no visible support) was invented to prevent the Earth from growing, as the visible evidence suggests. The Bible says three times that the Earth spreads out in unbroken continuity. It also states (Zech 12:1, that God continues in unbroken continuity to lay the foundations of the Earth.

Change is real. Change is fundamental. Change is biblical. Visibly, the orbits and the atomic clocks keep accelerating together throughout cosmic history. Western people cannot accept that kind of change, since it is a violation of the Western metaphysics.

Victor

135

@godsriddle

So… let’s just get all this straight for the benefit of your audience:

  1. You think the diameter of the Earth is increasing?

  2. You don’t think continents are moving?

  3. You think the modern oceans were created by Noah’s Flood?.. and prior to that, the sphere of the Earth was much smaller?

Were stars also much smaller 2000 years ago … to explain the Bible’s mention of stars falling to earth?

137

No the water is still water. It just contains dissolved NaCl. If you boil the water and cool the vapor you get back pure water and leave the salt behind. Water is an excellent solvent, but it doesn’t change. What dissolves in it changes the solution not the water.

And sorry but there is plenty of evidence for subduction. But I guess those pesky geologists are all involved in a global conspiracy to fabricate this evidence so we don’t have to face whatever it is you believe.

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138

Why are you moving the goalposts? You said previously,

“The great structure of Western science depends on the notion that an atom today is essentially the same as it was yesterday.”

And so that’s why I mentioned radioactivity, which clearly show s that an atom today is not always the same as it was yesterday.

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139

LOL, We might as well dismiss the field of chemistry while we’re in the process of dismissing all these other fields of science, right?

140

  1. The Bible plainly states (in Hebrew) that the Earth spreads out in unbroken continuity, that this spreading is above the waters, that even what emerges or is born of the Earth also spreads.

  2. The simple evidence overwhelmingly supports a growing Earth (and a growing Moon and a growing Mars). The continents fit together on a minuscule globe. Remove the mare on the moon, and the highlands fold together on a much smaller Moon. Remove the lowlands on Mars and the highlands fit together on a minuscule planet.

Continents are unlikely to move. They have basements several times thicker than the floors of the deep oceans. They are rooted in place and the oceans spread out along a global expansion seam between the continents.

  1. The modern oceans began during Noah’s cataclysm (the Greek word). See Psalm 104. The oldest Ocean is the Mediterranean that formed before the Atlantic began. The oceans continued to separate as new seafloor and hot water continue to emerge from deep in the Earth. The Earth continues to grow. You say, we should be able to measure this. On the contrary, most scientific measuring units were contrived with the medieval notion that matter has fixed properties.

The separation of North and South America from Europe and Africa evidently did not happen until the days of one of Noah’s great grandchildren, Peleg. In his days the Earth was divided by a watery division, Paleg.

You say, that cannot be. We know that some parts of the ocean floor are 70 millions years old. Western people measure billions of years with the false idea the Bible predicted for the last days: that all things remain the same. Yet we can see in visible cosmic history that the properties of matter keep shifting as the orbits accelerate outwards.

  1. Falling stars are a description of what we call meteors. During the tribulation, the sky will open up like a scroll. This is an accurate description of what happens during an asteroid hit. (Witnesses to the Tunguska asteroid event claimed the sky looked like someone cut it with a knife and peeled back as the asteroid sliced through the air). A major impact would eject countless burning rocks back out into space. The red hot rocks would rain down like stars, like unripe figs shaken by a mighty wind (Revelations 6:13).

You say, if the Earth orbit is spreading out, we would freeze and our ancestors would have roasted. The Egyptians, just a few thousand years ago, painted the Sun red and the sky brown. They did not even wear shirts working in the dessert sun. We orbited much closer to an infrared sun in those days.

Change and science are diametrically opposite worldviews. The biblical God can easily defeat Western science for his great glory. Man cannot come to faith through philosophy, only by the action of the Holy Spirit convincing us to trust Jesus.

Victor

141

@Victor,

I know you are going to be surprised to hear this suggestion … but I suggest to you that the Bible is not infrequently in error about the natural sciences.

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Funny but the continents are moving. As determined by measuring the residual magnetism on the sea floor which records the periodic reversal of the earth’s magnetic field. As determined by radiometric dating of the sea floor. As determined using GPS to actually measure the relative movements. As determined by dating the Hawaiian islands as they move over a hot spot below the earth’s crust.

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143

Indeed, the magnetic reversals exist in bands around the global expansion seam that runs through every ocean. They clearly show that new ocean floor forms around the expansion seam. Mars has magnetic stripes that encircle the whole planet in the southern hemisphere, showing the the planet has expanded.

Indeed, the crystal radioactive daughter products in ocean basalt shows that the youngest sea floor is adjacent to the expansion seam. The oldest seafloor is adjacent to the continental shelves. This is what one would expect if the Earth continues to spread out above the waters (Psalm 136:6).

GPS is based on the worldview I am arguing against. Scientists think they measure time with clocks and then they measure meters with atomic clocks. If atoms are changing themselves relationally, almost all the synthetic things scientists measure would shift with the changing atoms. We can see the past to the creation era in the history of billions of galaxies at many ranges. the orbits and the atomic clocks accelerate in unison.

Look at the Pacific transform faults and the relative age of the seafloor. The Emperor seamounts are evidence that the Pacific ocean is growing. It is not Hawaii that is migrating over a hot spot, but the hole Earth that is spreading out.

The best author who shows the evidence against subduction, that the Earth grows, is the geologist S. Warren Carey. His excellent book: “Theories of the Earth and Universe: a History of dogma in Earth Sciences” is available used on Amazon.

A first principle is so elementary that scientific reasoning is built on it. I am arguing with the elementary assumption of all scientists, using the words of the Bible. See 2 Peter 3:3-6.

The Bible is not a book substantiated by science. It is a book the vanquishes science for the Creator’s great glory.

Victor

144

I submit that our Bibles do contain errors in translation and errors in interpretation. However, the Bible is designed by God to defeat Western science.

How can this happen? The literal text of day four is visible in the distant heavens with telescopes. God continues to command the lights in the plural heavens to become spreading things. Billions upon billions of galaxies grew out and spread out from the formless matter God created on Day one. New telescopes are coming on line every year (ALMA, Square kilometer array soon the James Webb etc). What is visible to date supports the literal text. It is science that fails, not the Bible.

Victor

145

@godsriddle

If there is a way we could convince YEC leaders to believe as you do, I believe it would be a giant leap forward to the advancement of BioLogos, and its embrace of refugees from the anti-science wing of Christianity.