I worship God. That is why I won’t get bent out of shape or call the YEC movement godless or say they distort the Bible or reject a book of the Bible.
I do have a personal belief of EC, but I could be wrong. I am not saying EC is proven, it just has the most evidence from what I can see to make the most logical sense and I can also see how it aligns with much of scripture.
If you think the same of YEC, that is fine. But to think you do know the correct thing, you aren’t wrong, and that anyone who disagrees with you is rejecting a book of the Bible or the truth of God. Putting emphasis on your life to discover how right you are and how everyone must see your truth before they see God and that your YEC truth is what leads people to God… I think is worshiping a YEC narrative and not the Living God.
What if your athiest friend whom you respected, saw a miraculous thing happen in the background of something he was filming with multiple cameras. That fact that it showed up on film would eliminate any psychological bias or hallucination. There were no funny angles or visual illusions that could have occurred. And he is an atheist and has no bias for a deity. He calls you up and tells you he is on his way to you. On his way to show you his tapes, he is killed in an accident and all the evidence is destroyed. Do you believe in his claim? Do you still think he needs to get evalutated by a competent medical professional?
I know, far fetched…Point being, if someone had proof (to themselves), and that proof is no longer accessible to you, and tells you of something, will you ever believe another person? In this case, you having lack of proof, would make you wrong.
This here is the point. They believed in a spiritual resurrection, kind of like a ghost. John, to come back as Jesus or in the form of. This is not new to Jews. What would be completely new to the Jews is a person physically becoming alive again. Jesus being Jesus, with holes in His hands. That was radical for all Jews of that age and time. They also thought their messiah would save them and bring back Jerusalem to it’s glory days in David’s time and make it the greatest kingdom on earth. So when Jesus died, they were pretty doubtful He was the messiah. Their messiah wouldn’t be conquered so easily. The resurrection of Jesus was quite radical to them, this is why Thomas didn’t believe it until he physically touched Him. He was plenty familiar with the Jewish beliefs of ghosts and spirits of that time.
Amen, God is amazing! My name… I began on this forum as a curious YEC, maybe and OEC, but macro evolution was crazy wrong. I have since changed my stance on many debatable topics. But I have never, nor will ever change my stance on the love of God. I am thankful for His foundation of who He is that cannot and will not ever be moved either. A secure foundation that allows me to not fear any alternate understanding.
I agree to that. I would say more than speculation…but yea, it is just a theory based on evidence. If there is a whale bones dates with feet to be older than some whale bones with smaller feet, with more bones dated more recent with remnants of feet, to no feet. One can use that evidence, to come up with a theory that the feet whale turned into the no feet whale over time.
The methods to date the bones are scientifically tested and repeated. Science is used to obtain facts, but a theory is used to come to a logical conclusion of what most likely happened.
Science can also rule out what most likely didn’t happen. When you measure light from a star and it is a few billion years old, we can rule out the fact that the universe is less than a billion years old. This light measurement is repeatable and testable.
So if the universe cannot be a less than a billion years old. That leads us with a few choices. God created the universe in 6 days as a literal interpretation says, and made the universe appear to be billions of years old. Or the interpretation of Genesis was never meant to be literal.
Either way, the message of who God is, and how much He loves us, and how amazing and loving He is, is still a truth, that can’t be taken away by science or anything.
You can’t throw out the baby with the bath water though. If a few individuals believed that proving evolution would turn people away from God and that is what they wanted and that caused them to make stuff up, it doens’t make the truth any different. If someone made up math numbers to show the sun is the center of our solar system, that were later debunked, would that make the sun not the center?
Maybe the theory of evolution is wrong, and will be changed? I don’t think the measurement of light will ever change. The universe will always be measured at billions of years old. That is why I am not saying that evolution is the truth and all must believe. If something else is discovered, I will probably go that that camp. Whatever people smarter than me says happened, I will generally go with what they say. Especially when there are multiple Christians in that field that agree with them. And especially when their theory could be aligned with many themes of the Bible.
But I just see not logic for a micro evolution “stopping” before it could become macro. The cells are “stupid”, they do what they are told. A bone shrink or grow, skin shrinks or grows. It is the concert of all of those individual cells changing over a long time that make it “macro”. Like a book is the macro, and the words are the micro. One cannot know what the Bible is about if they just read “In”. It isn’t until many words have works in coordination and over time that you begin to see what it means. A journey took incremental steps to become something completely different than the original. I don’t believe there is a wall telling the cells to stop changing, you have changed enough.
Apparently @AMWolfe did a MUCH better job explaining this as He is way more educated than I am in this field.
You do have a point there, I have heard many Christians think this. That is why I don’t think that resurrection is important from that stance, that this was a supernatural thing that happened, proves He is the Son of God. It is kind of circular logic. Jesus’s the resurrection proved He is God, and because He is God, He was resurrected. SO any other claim of resurrection is false, because no one else is God.
This is why I try to stay away from that mentality. Jesus was resurrected for many reasons, and it is important, but more so “keep with the theme”. Jesus said He would, so He had to. And Jesus is life, so He had to. It also makes sense to celebrate a life over a death, though the death was the thing that brings us back to God, not the resurrection. Though it wasn’t the death, rather it was the perfect life of Jesus on earth that saved us, the death was just a thing that had to happen to make His life complete, to end the “perfect game”. So when we celebrate the resurrection, it is less morbid than celebrating a death, but His death was based on His life, so we celebrate His life, as death had to happen, but couldn’t hold Him, and that is also why we celebrate the resurrection.
I am fine if others claims were real, I know Satan has some crazy powers, it could be possible? But those original lives of those did nothing for me, and the resurrection was pointless as well. Did they just die again later? Did they live to serve me and all mankind and to be an example of how to live the most fulfilling life? I have to equity in wasting time arguing whether or not others did resurrect from the dead.
What are the other claims of resurrection for? They lived a life, death beat them, then some magical power raised them? Jesus lived as a servant to us, loved many during His life, and allowed death to hold Him down for a bit, then raised back to normal.
A different resurrection claim is like a brick being thrown in the water. Someone had to swim down and retrieve it, and take it out, and the brick hopes upon all hopes, that it doesn’t get thrown back in, because it will always sink.
Jesus is like trying to put a ball full of air or a life vest underwater. He required the heavens to align (because of the will of the Father allowing them to) and for the powers of darkness to use all it’s might to hold Him under for a few days, because that was the will of God, and then bloop, right back to the top. No fear of ever being drown ever again. God doesn’t need, nor will the heaven’s align, nor could the powers of darkness ever have it sink again. The ball rolls on land and over water, never the slightest fear or worry of being near water, it will never drown.
It is also salvation to anyone who clings on to this life vest, they will also never sink and don’t need to fear death. For they might get submerged for a few seconds, but bloop, right back to the top will they plop every time. Drowning/sin/death has been conquered, and there is no need to fear it, for those that believe, we can also hanging onto Jesus, never drown/die/be separated from God!
I see now that it wasn’t that Jesus HAD to be resurrected (because of prophesy or other reasons). I now see that prophesies were written because He WAS going to be resurrected. Death couldn’t hold Him, Jesus is the Way the Truth and the LIFE. Death wasn’t a obstacle that had to be overcome, it was a necessary even that He allowed to occur. The resurrection wasn’t a miracle, anymore than something floating is. The miracle was the fact that Jesus was allowed to die.
The first fruits of the spiritual resurrected. Sin separates us from God, all flesh has sinned, separation from God is spiritual death. Jesus’ flesh took on sin on the cross (the powers of darkness trying to drown Him), and sin/spiritual death kind of occurred…or tried to occur. But Jesus conquered sin and spiritual death, by rising form the dead, and being reunited with God. the first fruits of spiritual resurrection. Which we will all follow if we believe. Sin tried to drown Him, tried to separate Him from God, but failed. Jesus is the first fruit of resurrection!
I think that is what Paul was saying. Jesus had to resurrect, He is the Way the Truth and the LIFE. Just like a person trying to explain a heavy enough object placed on a life vest will yes, take it underwater a bit, but once removed, it has to float up, if it didn’t, then it is not a good life vest.