Can the story of Noah be literally true?

And look what happened with that weak God who died on a Roman cross. Peter was lookin for a Messiah who would overthrow Rome as were most people at the time. Get thee behind me Satan! We got the Suffering Servant. That tiny mustard seed as blossomed and filled the earth. The first shall be last and the last shall be first.

Parts of the Gospel of Thomas may date from the first or second century, depending on how you see it’s compositional history (its potential layers). I don’t know of anyone who dates it to the middle ages. Many put it in the second century and claim it is dependent on the canonical Gospels. Others argue it is independent.

Vinnie

I believe I said that Bruce Metzger said that the apostle’s belief in the resurrection was second to none as evidence from antiquity.
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"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2 And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write these things so that your(1 John 1) joy may be complete.

No one does this. I repeat no one. Sure it was the first of the canonical gospels . By the time it was written the gnostics werent even a thing ,i mean they werent even trying to spread their religion

That is false and a lie. We have historical evidence about some of the beliefs lf the early christians outside of the bible

Paul is the only one contemporary with them. Some may have been alive when the gospels were written. And you are distinguishing between inside and outside the Bible which doesn’t make sense.m
Josephus and Tacitus mention Jesus and Christians but none of the disciples by name nor anything really specific. Just that the movement continued after his death.

If you know of any earlier forts century evidence, feel free to list it.

Vinnie

I was arguing about the first Christians which we have some extra biblical evidence about their customs and practises.I too agree that we dont have anything on the other disciples as ive argued in another thread to you

What on earth are you talking about? I have read numerous books directly on GThomas and a host of scholarly journal articles. Not to mention many scholarly works on the historical Jesus as well where authors have to list and defend their source presuppositions. The vast majority date GThomas from 50-140.

From Peter Kirby on Early Christian writings:

The Gospel of Thomas is extant in three Greek fragments and one Coptic manuscript. The Greek fragments are P. Oxy. 654, which corresponds to the prologue and sayings 1-7 of the Gospel of Thomas; P. Oxy. 1, which correponds to the Gospel of Thomas 26-30, 77.2, 31-33; and P. Oxy. 655, which corresponds to the Gospel of Thomas 24 and 36-39. P. Oxy 1 is dated shortly after 200 CE for paleographical reasons, and the other two Greek fragments are estimated to have been written in the mid third century. The Coptic text was written shortly before the year 350 CE.

A very small number of scholars date it to 250CE. But the vast majority fit in the 50-140 range. He also have potential references by Origin and Hippolytus ca 225.

Obviously Thomas exists before we find partial Greek manuscripts of it it’s sayings. But it was a sayings Gospel and easy to alter and expand so it may have existed in multiple forms so when we date it we have to be conscious of what we are actually dating.

Patterson argued for 70-80 dating:

“While the cumulative nature of the sayings collection understandably makes the Gospel of Thomas difficult to date with precision, several factors weigh in favor of a date well before the end of the first century: the way in which Thomas appeals to the authority of particular prominent figures (Thomas, James) against the competing claims of others (Peter, Matthew); in genre, the sayings collection, which seems to have declined in importance after the emergence of the more biographical and dialogical forms near the end of the first century; and its primitive christology, which seems to presuppose a theological climate even more primitive than the later stages of the synoptic sayings gospel, Q. Together these factors suggest a date for Thomas in the vicinity of 70-80 C.E. As for its provenance, while it is possible, even likely, that an early version of this collection associated with James circulated in the environs of Jerusalem, the Gospel of Thomas in more or less its present state comes from eastern Syria, where the popularity of the apostle Thomas (Judas Didymos Thomas) is well attested.”

I’m not sure what conservative propaganda you have been reading but this is the standard dating range for GThomas which does not fit into the full pattern of second century gnostic texts.

Vinnie

What is the extra-Biblical references you are referring to? Sure. We have texts allowing us to reconstruct what Judaism was like at the time and Greco-Roman culture as well.

Thats wasnt for the date.No one argues it is dependent on the canonical Gospels.Its silly and idiotic

deleted by moi.

Not even my highschool teachers were citing wikipedia.

Also what was that about a letter by a bishop to discard the Gospels?Conspiarcy theory much?

Prove it or cite another sources.If not you did right to delete that comment

Avoidance, much?

I was under the impression that you were casting doubt on the age of the Gospel of Thomas. In later posts it appears that you agreed with the 60-250 AD date for the gospel. That was my only comment on the subject, so I deleted the post.

Sure.Let me go edit your source now :rofl:

These?

Valantasis, Richard (1997). The Gospel of Thomas . London; New York: Routledge.

Porter, J. R. (2010). The Lost Bible . New York: Metro Books.

No your wikipedia page. Also a book is not a source.Ancient sources please that gives validity to your claim or im not convinced ,and anyone with a brain shouldnt be

All I am saying is that there are scholars who date the Gospel of Thomas to 60-250 AD. You seemed to claim that no scholars did this, unless I misread your post.

Would you agree that there are scholars who assign these dates to the Gospel of Thomas?

Yeah sure .But that wasnt my argument above.The wikipedia page you cited and deleted said something conspiracional(at least to me )about an intended redaction for the Gospel of Thomas by some Bishop.All i said was that to prove this you need to provide sources and to be precise ancient ones that point out to this.By citing

these you prove nothing.I can too go to google and search whatever site i want with the author claiming to be whatever he likes.Thats why wikipedia its(most of the time) a joke

So you think no scholar believes the sayings in the Gospel of Thomas are dependent upon the synoptic sayings? And you call this belief idiotic? The irony is strong here as I have many historical Jesus books on my shelf arguing precisely this.

You do understand what this means right? The first three gospels were written and the sayings became popular. The Gospel of Thomas used that sayings material to make his own list with his own theological outlook. So the argument is Thomas provides us with no new or independent information outside the Gospels. What on earth do you find so ridiculous about this? That is the exact position of countless conservative scholars.

I think you would agree with that. You simply don’t understand it. The truth is there are a bunch of sayings which do look dependent on the canonical Gospels and a bunch that look independent. It’s quite a mess especially since in translating and copying it sometimes Thomas might have been assimilated to the canonical text. It also was probably constructed in stages as well. It’s very easy to add sayings. Thus, some could be dependent and some sayings come from before the canonical Gospels were written.

You are very defensive about the Gospel of Thomas and to be quite honest, extremely ignorant about scholarship on the issue. Do you find it threatens your faith? There was some diversity within the church. There always is. It’s not really an issue.

Vinnie

Erhman and other scholars believed it was written by a gnostic. So by all means go ahead and accept the Jesus “secret” message as the Gospel points out .For me its idiotic.

Im drawn by some gnostics beliefs myself but this is stupid

I was only referring to the dates given to the Gospel of Thomas. That’s it.

Grumpy pants doesn’t like Wikipedia. Noted.