Indeed! AND most Muslims say exactly the same thing about Islam.
But anyway… my token resistance to Islam bashing has about run its course. I do not like Islam. And my dislike would more heavily emphasize their attitudes towards women, which can be a criticism of Christianity also, but I think Islam is demonstrably worse.
I didn’t realize it was quite that bad. It makes me wonder how Europe fits in; I’ve read that in at least three countries in the EU the majority of rape and assault is done by Muslims.
You showed no such thing – you only showed that Paul adjusted things a bit from what the Jerusalem Council and the Holy Spirit decreed.
But the plain language in Acts 15 reduced the entire Mosaic Law to just four admonitions – there is no other way to read the text.
So now you assign to yourself the authority to decide what parts of scripture are actually scripture!
Those things are in the canon – they are scripture. You don’t get to play Thomas Jefferson and cut out the parts you don’t approve of.
Not in the least – the Decalog isn’t the basis of Christian morality anyway, the Cross is.
Yes and Jesus reduced it to just two commandments.
But the commandments to kill these people is not even mentioned let alone countermanded. Can it be interpreted in such a way? Sure. But that is a fancy footwork and far stretched interpretation, to say the least. And I think Muslims do the same with their own scriptures.
That’s an interesting notion but it has no scriptural support: it requires that sin is not only some sort of entity but that it is capable of having goals.
Back to writing science fiction I see!
Strawman.
There are living trees that are older than 6500 years, and they have been ‘tested’, so that claim is false. In fact it was the reason that one fellow student in a botany course rejected Christianity; he thought it was what Christianity actually teaches.
There’s no need to countermand an order that has been carried out.
Where was the Creationist bible altered? Show us the evidences for that.
I use a large variety of bibles which are based on the scholarly research of 10’s of thousands of manuscripts, papyri, codexes etc…I’m really looking forward to your proving your claim there.
Might i also suggest that you go and take a peek at Dr Dan Wallace’s work on textual criticism and translation. He is one of the foremost world experts on the subject and his organisation is currently in the process of photographing all of the New Testament Greek manuscripts we have available.
If you actually studied the works of guys like Dr Wallace, you would quickly realise that the conspiracy theory claims - that the text has been altered, its meaning changed, we are unable to read it correctly…these are ridiculous arguments that in fact the “scientific evidence” completely demolishes. They are complete nonsense! We have a wealth of textual options that resolve the “Chinese whispers” problem.
For example, as I’ve mentioned before…
even if we lost every single piece of biblical writings, manuscripts, papyri, codexes etc…every single on of them…we have enough biblical verses in the writings of the early church fathers to reproduce almost the entire bible as we know it today…so we don’t even need to bible itself to obtain the witness. Im just trying to think of another known piece of writing that could be reconstructed that way?
yes obviously…
Let me ask…how old was your grandfather when he died? And your great grandfather when he died? your great great grandfather when he died?
has anyone you know lived to even Jacobs age (147) when he is said to have died?
How do you explain that even the biblical model shows a rapid decline in Age after the flood? Are you going to try to tell me that all of the historical patriarchs in the old testament, who’s timeline clearly align with kings, queens and other significant historical figures…those ages recorded in the bible are all fake are they St Roymond?
Note the references i post St Roymond…the references are supported in the bible! Where are yours above? As usual…you cite none!
If you are truly going to attempt to tell us that age is not directly related to health and that poor lifestyle has no bearing on either life expectancy, family medical history, or health…id have to call you out on that! So again, explain the age decline in the historical genealogies of individuals in the bible as shown in the two illustrations above.
If you are going to speak of historical kings and queens, the pharaohs and nobility of Egypt who are aligned with the patriarchal timeline, all are recorded as having lived completely normal lifespans.
I would warn against that kind of claims. That gives the false impression that Islam is the cause of the rapes. I do not think so, even if Quran does not condemn certain behaviours that are crimes in modern western societies.
The problem seems to be more in the strong contrast of cultures and lack of societal control that the young immigrant men face when they move to a liberal western country.
In their home country, ‘decent’ women use clothes that do not reveal everything and do not look at the eyes of strange men. If a woman looks to the eyes of a man, that may be considered flirting, with a hint of promise for something more. When these men see the young women in western countries, they easily misread the signals.
Also in their former home countries, the young men would like to do more than the social rules allow. The strict social control discourages such behaviours. When these young men move to Europe, suddenly there are no relatives or other close people to control what they do. It is an apparent freedom to do whatever they want. That leads easily to problems, especially if they misread the signals they see around and face great difficulties in being accepted and integrated to the society.
I see many of the crimes that follow as failed social integration. There should be working social integration for immigrants, otherwise there will be problems. There may also be a need to send a message of social control, for example by returning those new immigrants that make crimes to their former home country. If they are returned with information of what they have done, their relatives do not thank them when they return.
Edit:
In this country, claims that Muslims do the majority of rape and assault would probably be some sort of crime because we have a law against ‘ethnic agitation’. Even parliament members have been condemned when they have written against Muslim immigrants in ways that suggests that Islam is the cause of the crimes some of the immigrants have made.
The law proved to be handy when in a neighbouring country (Sweden), some persons protested and tried to prevent friendly relationships with Muslim dominated countries by burning Qurans. Sweden has stressed the freedom of speach to the point that they could not prevent legally such provocations. Naturally, people in Muslim dominated countries were furious and that caused problems for the whole country. Politicians in Turkiye were so upset (or pretended to be) that they stopped the application of Sweden to join Nato. Finally, Sweden had to pass a new law in order that they could prosecute persons that consciously agitated others by burning Qurans.
Here in Finland, there were not such problems because the law against ‘ethnic agitation’ prevented demonstrations where people would have burned Qurans or other items that religious people would consider sacred - there were some attempts but the police denied such provocative acts in legal demonstrations and stopped those who tried to do it.
I agree but at the same time, would like to make a difference between what religion teaches and what are the local cultural habits.
For example, some Muslim people with immigrant background want that their daughters are ‘circumcised’ (female genital mutilation). Those wanting it most strongly are usually older women who want to get a ‘decent’ man to their daughter/relative. Based on the culture they carry with them, young men value and want a wife that is chaste. The ‘circumcision’ of a girl is a sign that the girl is more likely to stay chaste - less temptations to be with other men if the enjoyable parts have been removed…
‘Circumcision’ of women is a tradition among those Muslims but it does not come from Islamic teachings - Quran does not tell to do something like that. Yet, these older people think that it needs to be done like something that comes from religion. When the local laws and culture do not allow it, young girls are sent to visit relatives in the former home country of their parents and the mutilation is done there.
I am strongly against such a traditional ‘circumcision’ that I consider to be a crime against the girls - it is mutilation, not circumcision.
and that is to be expected…notice what age jacob was when he died (140 years). So by the time of the bible interaction with pharaohs in Egypt, even the biblical age had dropped to not much over 100 years of age.
so what is the issue there exactly?
since when did the Jerusalem Council write Scripture?
Acts had not been written when Paul was writing to Timothy!
You are claiming that the Holy Spirit spoke through any and all early Christians and because Luuke recorded this letter it automatically becoames Scripture?
It is in direct oppsitioon to how Christ summarised things. It runs roughshod over all Mosaic Law including the Decalogue.
So in one breath you claim Scripture cannot be brokken or ignored and in the next you are claiming we can ignore the whole of the Torah! (Except Genesis 1-9 of course!)
No, you do.
All I am saying is that there is adfference between reported reords and acctionable Scripture.
Scripture is not all one type of writing. It contains history (reprorting) commentary on that history, poetry, hymnody, wisdom. and prophecy. It is not all prophecy, It is not all words from God or even authorised by Him. Are you going to bow down to eery minutia in Proverbs,? I have heard you claim Psalms to be prphetic, and yet if they contrqdict your science they are not true.
You haver the nerve to criticise my understanding of Scripture when you just casually deltete most of the Old Testament in one fell swoop? You, who claims that the Holy Spirit does not understand Science so cannot be expected to get it right in Geesis 1, but is able to retell exactly early Human history in Gensis 2-9!
You refuse to accept the imargery of Genesi 1 but latch onto magical trees and speaking serpents in chapyter 3. You are much more guilty that i of abusing and rewriting Scriture for your own doctrines.
Just because at one point in time a priophet claim all are corrupt, you think tht means that prophecy stretches to the end of time! Just so you can laud it over humanity and claim superiroity.
You make me sick!
Richard
Logically Wallace’s work has nothing to do with any of the above as mitchell meant it – that the words are known does not alter the fact that YEC ignores grammar, misreads words, rejects the common use of Hebrew, etc.
Which no one has mentioned but you – again you’re attacking a strawman.
Nice way to dodge – none of that has anything to do with people becoming less perfect.
Nothing earlier than Abraham lines up with any historical figures – and the only figures they could line up with are recorded as having lifespans on the order of ten thousand years.
How am I supposed to “cite” something that doesn’t exist?
You’re engaging in circular reasoning: you assume that the Genesis patriarch ages are literal, then use the stated ages as evidence that they are literal. But you totally fail in citing anything that says they are literal, you just start with that assumption.
And you refuse to see that the assumption that they must be literal does not come form the Bible, it comes from a modern scientific worldview! If you think that’s not so, then please show us where in the Bible it is written that the text intends to be scientifically (and historically) accurate!
Where does the text make that assertion? It doesn’t – which is why your position here is just science fiction.
In fact the text contradicts your claim – it gives a different reason for the reduced ages.
There’s no “naturally” to it – it comes from thinking that Islam is superior to everything.
They need to grow up.
Have you ever heard of this thing called canonization?
It is in line with the core of the Gospel.
Yes – it is an affirmation that Jesus did what He said, that He fulfilled the Law.
Ignore? No. Bow to? I am explicitly stating that the Holy Spirit reduced the entire Torah to four admonitions, which is what the text flat out says.
Not in the least – I insist that all scripture is scripture.
In other words, you have set yourself up as a judge over the contents of the canon.
I don’t have any science for them to contradict.
I haven’t casually deleted anything – I insist against you that you have no right to delete and ignore as you please. I affirm the Tanakh.
You really are just like YECers: you see science everywhere. Of course the Holy SPirit understands science, He just doesn’t care about teaching science – that’s not His job.
Genesis 2 - 9 is not history – it’s the wrong kind(s) of literature, as is also true of Genesis 1, 10, and 11.
If you really think your first clause is correct then you are very poor at reading: I insist on the imagery of Genesis 1, I just reject imposing a MSWV on it.
And of course I “latch onto magical trees and speaking serpents in chapyter 3” – they’re right there in the text.
None of those statements are prophecy.
If I used your approach to scripture, I could make a case that Westboro Baptist Church is totally correct – I would just have to do what you do, ignoring what doesn’t fit . . . engaging in confirmation bias to edit the scriptures to support a given view.
Your assertion makes me sick – as far as I am concerned it is merely a reflection of how you treat everyone here, insisting that you are right and that only you understand scripture. The reality is that both you and YECers force the scriptures into a MSWV and thus fail to grasp the message.
The eyewitness history of Egypt extends much farther back than Jacob, which in the Ussher chronology would have lived around the 12th dynastic period, approximately a full millennium from the unification of upper and lower Egypt. So those lifespans do cover the entire period you reference.
No, I have nevr claimed that.You claim it all the time. I do not. You caim I must see it as you do. and if I do not I am
ignoring Scripture
Picking and choosing
judging Scripture
Ugnoring the Holy Spirit
I could cite a few more.
Then you accuse that of mst theologians and people who stufy the Bible.
Of course you casually ignored that…
That letter was part of Luke’s account. That account was accpeted as scripture. Luke records a letter and you are claiming that to be cannonised?
You are just plain wrong! That letter is not Scripture in the same sense as Paul’s letters…I think most if not all Biblical schollars, apart from you, would accept that.
So Jesus negates the Torah? (fulfills it)
After Jesus it has done its duty?
Jesus said otherwise.
He said to obey the two great commandments and neither of them are covered by thaqt letter.
You are muddliing theology.
To be honest you have lost me. I no longer understand what you beleive other than a slavish view of Scripture when it suits you.
And I will thank you not to keep comparing me to YECs. It is just an an excuse for you to try and belittle or criticise me.
Richard
I quote to you literally dozens of cross references in relation to this supposed misreading of grammar, references where other bible writers present the exact same interpretation of scripture…so I’m using internal scriptural interpretations…and you cite grammatical errors? Thats simply not what the evidence i present to you proves.
Since we are at this point…cite some examples of errant grammatical interpretations and show me relevant scriptures that support that the YEC claim is biblically wrong. Then we shall look at each one and see whether or not what you claim is actually true.
I challenge you with this because rarely (if ever) do you actually cite supporting scriptures that agree with your claims and when you do, they are taken out of context, twisted in meaning, or even quoted incorrectly (in that the text has nothing to do with what you are trying to support). What that demonstrates is that most of the time, your doctrines are derived from straw plucking exercises…that’s not how theology is done!
He won’t.
I have been asking him to do that for some time now, but he claims that my misuse of Scriture will invalidate my response.
IOW his view of Scriptureis the only one possible so it is not worth explaining it. There is no argument possible.
Richard
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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