Can anyone provide examples of YEC resources that promote distrust of science?


#82

Exactly. That is exactly what most evolutionists do. Presuppose the conclusions. That’s why they are so surprised to find organic material, such as distinguishable collagen or Dna in fossils of dinosaurs… Because of their presupposing of conclusions. Then of course, they change the normal characterization of the evidence to fit their paradigm. Of course, I know you don’t believe that, but the whole point is that YEC are not anti-science. It is a lie, and a deception, to say so.


(James McKay) #83

DNA in fossils of dinosaurs? What DNA in fossils of dinosaurs? As far as I’m aware, nobody has found DNA – certainly not sequenceable DNA – in fossils of dinosaurs. If the Earth really were only six thousand years old, we would be finding copious quantities of intact T-Rex DNA everywhere. We’d have sequenced the entire T-Rex genome by now. Why haven’t we?


#84

Proof? Evidence?


(James McKay) #85

Woolly mammoths? Ötzi the Iceman? Tollund Man? Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA? Even by YEC reckoning these are all several thousand years old, yet they’ve all been sequenced completely.

In any case, scientists have studied how long DNA takes to fragment. The paper to read is Allentoft et al (2012). They found that it would take DNA an average of 131,000 years at 15°C, 882,000 years at 5°C, or 6.8 million years at -5°C to decompose to single nucleotides.


(Matthew Pevarnik) #86

Wrong.

Very wrong.

Remarkably wrong.

It is anti-science to presuppose ones conclusions. It’s not bad to have a hypotheses of what you think or expect to find, but then you don’t get to pretend that you’re still right in the face of contradictory evidence.

One does not presume that dinosaurs are found in rock they can be very accurately dated to be older than 65 million years old. You just simply measure ratios of isotopes, using various techniques to eliminate potential errors. It was surprising to find search material and dinosaur fossils not because of any presumption but based upon our best understanding of how various material decays. Now we also don’t actually have any organic material but rather fossilized remnants of such that only occurs in highly oxidizing environments.

There is no measurement of anything ever that is ever returned an actual physical measurement of 6000 years for the age of the universe/ earth or 4000 years for a global flood. Which geological strata should be even try to date for the flood? There is no single strata of the covers the entire world and nobody who holds to a YEC position can actually come to a consensus on which geological layers represent the flood or so on and so forth. There’s nothing in the entire universe that supports this position. If one had to figure this all out from scratch and wasn’t aware of a particular interpretation of the Bible that was reinspired by Seventh-day Adventist founder, Ellen White - nobody could tell that supposedly all the stuff was created a few thousand years ago and that there was a global flood ever.


(Randy) #87

One of the most godly Christians I have ever met told me that it’s ok to keep a Biblical prejudice because we all have prejudices. That was a mistake, though I still have the greatest respect for him that I ever had for any being.
I used to sit down with my agnostic professor in undergrad and protested that we all have prejudices, so we couldn’t know what truth was. He looked at me, took a breath, and said, “but then, if we stopped trying, we wouldn’t know anything; and that’s not feasible.” I realized that he was saying it’s not good to have prejudices–we should avoid them, and continue asking questions till we get rid of as much as possible. There is no excuse to, as Ken Ham put it, keep our prejudices.

In “Four Views on a Historical Adam,” William Barrick, who argued for the YEC side, said we should not judge the Bible from what we learn in the world; we should read the world through Bible lenses. That’s really scary. Judging from a strict Biblical interpretation, as John Walton reminded us in “The Lost World of Genesis One,” would ensure that we believed that there was a three-tier universe, with flat earth and raqia dome. On the other hand, there was no reason for God to teach new scientific information to his target audience of the time…it had nothing to do with the message and would only confound things. When I talk to my daughter, at 5, I try to explain that the sun doesn’t really rise in the east…that we tilt toward it…but she does not really understand yet. I don’t push it because that is not helpful to her. The ancients were not intellectually immature, but they did not have a worldview that necessitated or would have responded favorably to actual facts about the age of tge earth, etc.

Further, how can we discuss things with people of other faiths? Given Ham’s declaration, there’s no reason to convince a Muslim or Hindu of various interpretations–we can’t use our mind and senses to interpret the world rationally without our holy book’s interpretations, so we can’t communicate over faith or science with any sort of common language.

God’s earth is reliable and good. It is a good place to start reasoning from. Thank you.


#88

Wrong. It may not be the best method, perhaps, but it is not anti-science. Otherwise evolutionists would be anti-science, as they appear often to presuppose their conclusions. Driving a vehicle poorly does not mean the driver is anti-driving.


(Matthew Pevarnik) #89

Thanks for using the phrase ‘as they appear often to.’ That is a terrible myth that keeps being repeated by anti-science groups like the YEC science writers, or those that reject anthropogenic climate change, vaccines don’t cause autism, the earth isn’t flat, or many other things in the name of ‘scientists are biased and presuppose conclusions.’

Why do scientists do this? The anti-science groups say things like: money, job security, anti-God/anti-Bible bias, etc. while simultaneously claiming they have true knowledge/science on their side.


(Randy) #90

But the point is whether one is willing to improve or not. To insist on driving on the wrong side of the road despite signs to the contrary is doomed to end in trouble, isn"t it? :wink:


(Steve Schaffner) #91

Presupposing one’s conclusions is not the best method of doing science in the same sense that shooting someone in the head with a 12-gauge shotgun is not the best method of performing an appendectomy.


(James McKay) #92

No, but it does mean that the driver is reckless. Driving poorly can kill people.

It’s the same thing with arguments about the age of the earth. If you want to try to fit evidence to your presuppositions, you need to make sure that the way you do so meets basic standards of quality control. If you encourage sloppiness in the historical sciences, you will also encourage sloppiness in the operational sciences. And that, too, can kill people.

Just about every argument for a young earth that I’ve seen fails spectacularly in that department.