Camel's Hump and Biologos

Let think on this a bit…

But I would sharpen a few of your points…

I have no problem with this. I think we can know something of God from nature. However, I do not think we can know what ID hopes to know from science. I reject the conflation of science with nature, and the conflation of something with design. That facile conflation is just lazy thinking that seems almost obviously false.

Not speaking for everyone, I am not hostile to natural theology as a whole. I am hostile to the ID version of natural theology, because of the conflation I just listed.

Also I am not a fidelist and find that term offensive when applied to me. I think Jesus (and the early believers) offers the evidence of the Resurrection as proof of His authenticity. I think it is good and right to discuss and offer evidence for the Ressurection. This is exactly the opposite position of a fidelist.

As for EC people in general, I think it is a mixed bag. I have already articulated they need to (in my opinion) explain their “epistimology,” which I argue should be rooted in Jesus and the Ressurection. I’d say that is an open concern that is being figured out at the moment. It is not fair, however, to say that EC is officially fidelist. I think my approach is certainly within their camp, and it is certainly not fidelist.

A confusing question, Joshua, in that of the writers on the Hump, only I and Penman bear the “Reformed” label (our corporate banner being “Classical Theism” - We include Methodists, Mennonites, Orthodox, Episcopalians, Baptists and even Jews. And Swedenborgians.), and only Eddie bears the label “ID” (though as I have said I find i have sympathy with some of their work).

Speaking then for myself alone, my reading of Calvin and other foundational Reformers does not stress special revelation at the expense of general revelation. Calvin regards the latter as bringing a basic knowledge of God to all men, and though he dismisses the possibility of a natural theology leading to a saving knowledge of God, even his dismissal of scholastic natural theology (ie the use of reason, rather than the observation of nature) does not preclude entirely the role of reason in general revelation.

Some of the Reformed English Puritans were very strong on the revelation of God’s glory in nature - one of my influences is the poet Thomas Traherne. Another George Herbert. If they were not more forthcoming on it, it’s because it was so general that nobody questioned it seriously.

I would see ID as seeking to redress a modern, and rather local, eclipse of general revelation: it is no coincidence that atheism is virtually unknown in primitive societies, or in European society until the Enlightenment. A properly basic (to use Alvin Palntinga’s parlance) awareness that God created all things, and created them well, has been masked by a combination of ideas.

I’d agree with them that the superficial plausibility of Darwinian natural selection - which seems to promise design free of cost - is one factor in that. That’s one reason I welcome the range of new discoveries in evolutionary science: the more the intuitively simple idea is shown not to be adequate to explain the reality, the more clearly our instinctive knowledge of God as Creator is restored.

As for the criticism that they are seeking to prove God by science, I disagree to the extent that they say it. However, it’s usually their critics who say that’s what they say: their own writings talk of things that are “best explained by a designing intelligence rather than by unguided natural processes” (a paraphrase, from memory). The goal is limited - to indicate external teleology. Any theological implications are limited to those of Reformed general revelation: “That God is the author of that teleology”. No ID writer that I know of believe in a natural theology that compares to special revelation on Scripture (even the non-Evangelical Moonies, Jews, and so on).

I should add that this is the kind of Natural Theology that B B Warfield, a first-generation theistic evolutionist and a Reformed Presbyterian, held. (Note that when I first discovered his writings, I identified myself for a while as a “Warfieldian Theistic Evolutionist”), He wrote:

“God’s revelation of Himself is ‘in divers manners.’” He lists a number of the sources of divine revelation, “Under the broad skirts of the term ‘revelation,’ every method of manifesting Himself which God uses in communicating knowledge of His being and attributes, may find shelter for itself – whether it be through those visible things of nature whereby His invisible things are clearly seen, or through the constitution of the human mind with its causal judgment indelibly stamped upon it, or through that voice of God that we call conscience, which proclaims His moral law within us, or through His providence in which He makes bare His arm for the government of the nations, or through the exercises of His grace, our experience under the tutelage of the Holy Ghost – or whether it be through the open visions of His prophets, the divinely-breathed pages of His written Word, the divine life of the Word Himself.”

Naturally he goes on to speak of the limitations of these for salvation. Just as he speaks of the limitations of Darwinian evolution!

Did you know (I’m sure you do) that Warfield is the intellectual grandparent of Ken Ham? He is considered by many to be among the foundational thinkers of Fundamentalism in the US. I’d be really interested to see you devote a series at the Hump explaining his place in Fundamentalism and the details of is theological peace with evolution.

Would you consider that?

True, but they will often argue that this is a prerequisite, foundation, or starting point from which to consider special revelation. This notion is embedded throughout ID literature.

I strongly dispute that notion. I think Jesus is the starting point. I’m very “@George Murphy” in this regard. Perhaps I am a closet Lutheran too? I really reccomend this article. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2006/PSCF3-06Murphy.pdf I’d be curious your thoughts…

@George, would you chime in? I’ve always admired your work…

1 Like

Quick response - search on The Hump and you’ll find a few posts on Warfield (and the other early TEs).

It would be a turn up indeed if the Father of Creationism turned out to be the Father of Theistic Evolution too!

But the truth is more complex - “Fundamentalism” at its inception was an evangelical response to liberalism, the statement of “The Fundamentals” of orthodox faith. But there was a whole raft of things happening in the US - not least the choice that denominations seemed to be presented with to go liberal or to go with Finneyan revivalism. Ted Davis would know about that more than me.

But the net result was that over time “Fundamentalism” (including Warfiled and Hodges work on Inerrancy) became literalism, and various events (such as the horrors of the First War perceived as partly due to the Kaiser’s racial supremicism, and the eugenics movement) made it anti-evolutionary.

Please tell this story in detail on your blog. I will link to it heavily. I will learn from it.

https://www.amazon.com/Battling-Gods-Atheism-Ancient-World/dp/0307958329

Ancient atheism was a thing…

1 Like

Isn’t that my point though? I do not dismiss natural theology entirely, but am deeply sketpical of it as a scholastic activity.

O, O, Oh!!! SOOOOooooOOOOO true! You put into words what I’m sure many of us only had the roughest inchoate formulation of the emotional state of many BioLogos supporters!

1 Like

The brickbats come when you spend more time trying to win a rhetorical coup instead of trying to resolve an issue.

Right now I see nicely defined biases. Can you put into a single or sentence or two how you would describe the “bias” that you would personally support?

Now in defense of @Eddie. Let’s lay off. He has heard everyone jump on him. I think he knows where all stand. Let’s lay off.

1 Like

@Swamidass

Oh, you’ve been seduced so quickly?

I’ve seen @Eddie turn on me in an instant to prove virtually NOTHING.

He is going to have to BEHAVE to get me lay off… Saying “I get it” and not changing anything isn’t going to cut it with me.

I don’t know if this totally relates to what you are interested in, but FWIW this article: (I can’t get the link to work, but if you google “CONGENIALITY” OF MIND AT OLD PRINCETON SEMINARY: WARFIELDIANS AND KUYPERIANS RECONSIDERED. Paul Kjoss Helseth. you can find the pdf) attempts to interact with George Marsden’s analysis of the early Fundamentalists/Old Princetonian approach to academia and science and make a case that they were actually more grounded in traditional Reformed thought than current historical interpreters like Noll and Marsden give them credit for. In any case, whether or not you buy his conclusions that Marsden is offering an incomplete revisionist picture, it has an overview of some relevant history of Fundamentalist engagement with academia and the (presumed) epistemological approach taken by early Fundamentalists like Warfield.

That link isn’t working for me, but do you mean George Marsden? I was going to suggest Marsden’s books as a good source to understand the development of fundamentalism in general in the U.S., with plenty of mentions of Darwinism along the way.

George Murphy’s usual signoff on the old ASA list was “natural theology delenda est” (must be destroyed), (borrowing from Cato the Elder’s habitual “Carthago delenda est” in the Roman Senate.)

(Anyone who tries to type in Latin will hate autocomplete even more than the average.)

My copy of the Fundamentals got lost in a move, but I recall that one of the authors was a biologist who had earlier accepted evolution, but by the time of The Fundamentals had changed his mind and rejected it. Emblematic of the polarization of the times, I assume.

Hmm - would require some reading and revision. We’ll see how things go…

Yes - some of the Greek philosophers indeed questioned the gods - but as a very small and elite section of society. Funnily enough a blog I’m preparing quotes somebody discussing the sporadic war between materialism and theism since that time.

But in broad brush terms things came to a head in te Enlightenment as far as our society goes, and it was the first time that atheism became a widespread phenomenon.

(Caveat - there is a much bigger history of “practical atheism” - living as if there were no God. That, I think, is what the the psalmist means when he says "The fool has sid in his heart/“There is no God.”

The key point for me would be fleshing out what it could mean to be a Warfieldian Theistic Evolutionist. For that matter, how about a John Gersham Manchenian Theistic Evolutionist. That could be compelling for many people.

Calvin, I think, had his sights specifically on the Thomistic style of NT (at least as practised without Thomas’s faith), which held that arguments from natural reason (rather than natural science) could lead to a sufficient knowledge of God. The Five Ways and all that.

I don’t think he was saying that academics shouldn’t ever mix God with nature,
(a) because natural philosophy was an early stage in the degrees everyone took at University
(b) because natural philosophy in his day still owed a lot to Aquinas and included God’s final causes, forms and so on.
© because when early modern science did appear, it was specifically aimed at thinking God’s thoughts after him through observing his Creation (cf Newton, who wrote more theology than science, or Kepler whose notes were studded with spiritual observations).