ob·jec·tive·ly
/əbˈjektivlē,äbˈjektivlē/
adverb
“events should be reported objectively”
“the physical world we think of as objectively true”
It has nothing to do with a mind’s, or science’s, ability to demonstrate it. The universe would still objectively exist if all of a sudden we were not in it.
Correct. It is not our ability to demonstrate it but the nature of the thing itself which makes such a demonstration possible. Even if there was not a single person in the universe with the scientific ability to demonstrate the truth of scientific facts doesn’t mean they are not objectively true. It remains a fact that if people did perform the written procedures of science they would still get the same results no matter what they want and believe. But the truths in religion are not like that. The results of the things you do in religion DO depend on what you want and believe. And this is why people will never agree on things in religion.
But if you cannot even demonstrate something in principle then calling it “objectively true” is nothing but an empty fantasy the same as when people of different religion say that utterly contradictory claims are “objective true.” The atheist will take that as evidence that it is all fantasy and there is no truth to any of it. But that is ultimately no different than the claims of religions claiming their view of things is the one objective truth. I choose a more reasonable path to say that there are both objective truths (which are the same for everyone) and subjective truths (which are not the same for everyone). Only the mathematical space-time structure of the physical universe provides the means to make things the same for everyone where what they want and believe does not matter - the only basis for an objective truth which is more than just fantasy. I believe in a subjective aspect to reality because I don’t think everything else like religion is just fantasy, it is just subjective (not the same for everyone), and because I don’t think that what we want and believe doesn’t matter to the whole of reality.
The existence of God is the same for everyone – like the existence of the universe, whether they are aware of it or care to acknowledge it or not. There.is.nothing.subjective.about.it.
Since the experience of God is not independent of what people want and believe then it is by definition subjective. You cannot produce a written procedure demonstrating the existence of God that gives the same result no matter what you want or believe. So they can therefore conclude that your claim that God exists is nothing but a fantasy. You can insist until you are blue in the face that your God will force Himself on everyone whether they like it or not. And they will continue to laugh at your absurdity because nothing is forcing any such thing. By contrast, the findings of science can give written procedures giving the same results no matter what you want or believe and that is a demonstration that these facts of science are forcing themselves on everyone.
The reasonable middle ground is that God does not force Himself on everyone, but allows people to make their own choices. But that puts Him in the category of subjective truths whether you like it or not. You are just going to reign in that impulse of yours to shove your religion down everyone’s throats and accept the restrictions of civilized society before people lose their patience with you.
Good grief. I have not been talking about people’s experience of God. I have been talking about the reality of God and who he is, and that is not subjective. No wonder you’re having a problem.
You are doing the same thing you did last night, making things up that you think that I have said, and then misquoting me with the words you have put in my mouth. (You have neglected God’s providential M.O. in your little rant.)
I am still interested in your explanation of how God’s providence works, using time-based language and avoiding ‘planning’ and ‘choosing’. Have you read @maggie777’s story?
The reality is what people experience not the theories and ideas they have. Only the actual experience of something makes it real. If they never experience anything, then what difference do your claims of existence ever make to them? They would never be more than empty words.
I misquoted you because you misquoted me, just like the last time. Only this time you failed to correct your mistake. I see no point in carrying on a discussion when so little effort is put into trying to understand what the other person has said.
So to dredge up patience from somewhere and keep trying despite this, let’s try some questions…
Do you believe God forces Himself on people?
Do you think God doesn’t care what people want or believe?
Why in the world would I do that? Shall I ask you to explain how God uses reincarnation to cure people of their sins? No doubt you will misquote me again and take this to mean (contrary to all of my previous posts) that I believe in reincarnation. 
Obviously you won’t, because the realities of God’s planning and choosing are something you can’t handle.
(And you cannot negate the facts of your misquoting me by merely saying that I misquoted you.)
Total absurdity! Your accusations and replies approach insanity.
What I won’t do is avoid the words “planning” and “choosing” because I believe God is quite capable of ordering His actions temporally despite not being confined to our particular measure of time (or any measure of time for that matter)… because I believe God is capable of all the same things any persons are capable of. I believe in a God who is more capable than we are and not one enslaved to human theology. God CAN takes risks, give privacy to others, make sacrifices, make a rock so heavy even He cannot lift it, and set aside knowledge and power in order to become a helpless human infant.
This doesn’t mean that there are no limits on what we can rationally say about God. His omnipotence does not mean that God can do whatever we say by whatever means we care to dictate. That irrationality of demanding that we have our cake and eat it too is the failing of our own weak minds and not a coherent limitation on God Himself.
Talk about insanity and absurdity – nonsense questions don’t deserve to be addressed except for the recognition of what they are.
Did Jan have any choice or did God choose for her to be the very next person in line in front of Maggie in her story, in the paragraph after the numbered list? According to you, if God is sovereign (he is), Jan was a robot.
And I would like you to show me where that was, precisely.
Of course… because you cannot be bothered to fix your own mistakes.
I was answering your claim that making themselves visible meant that angels were physical, and I replied that being spiritual did not mean they were less real.
Saying no that they are not less real.
And that is the second time this happened. The first time you acknowledged your mistake and corrected yourself. So I thought a similar approach might work again.
@mitchellmckain and @Dale
I read your dialog about the relationship between God and humanity and thought I would share my thoughts because it is an important question.
First. We must be very careful in this area. A agree that humans cannot read the mind of God. The problem with their use of this concept is that they use it against the Trinity, where this is not really appropriate. The Trinity is about the relationships between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not about the Mind of God…
Second. God loves humans because we are lovable, rather than because of anything we have done. Humans are lovable because they can love and they can love because God created them in God’s own Image (by means of evolution.)
Third. God loved us before we loved God. We can love because God loved us first. Part of that love is creating humans.
Fourth. Humans cannot love God because we are enmeshed with sin, shame, guilt, and enmity. This does not prevent God from loving humans, see above, but this does not present humans from being lost in darkness.
Fifth. Humans are saved from sin not because of what we have done or can do, but because we need forgiveness, God loves us, and forgives us. When we accept our brokenness, the fact that we are sinners, and trust in God’s love alone, then God is able to come into our lives and restore our relationships with others, God, and ourselves.
Sixth. God created the universe because God is God. God loves us because God is God. God Is Who God Is. God is Trinity because God Is Who God Is.
That was not misquoting you, it was disagreeing with you. 
Disagree on your fourth claim and I think your sixth is no explanation at all.
Humans CAN love God. Sin is not an enmity with God but self-destructive habits – it harms only us. We cannot harm God. God created Satan precise so that we would have an enemy other than God. But it is true that sin gets in the way, and not just in the way of loving God but gets in the way of life itself. AND sin is degenerative – it grows until it consumes us completely.
Your sixth is like saying you wrote your post because you are you, and you love your mother because you are you… no explanation at all. Better to say that God created the universe because He chose to. But I also think He had a reason. To do what He meant by creating us in His own image, He needed to create the self-organizing process of life and life requires the physical universe governed by the mathematical laws of nature.
But now I have stated my position that is the end of this. I will not argue these points with you. That has never ended well. Though the same appears to be true of Dale.
Tell us more about God making a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it.
Never mind. Please don’t, speaking of ending well.
We can cause him pain, however, as disobedient children can cause pain to their parents.
I agree that the 6th is not an explanation. It is not meant to be. God does not have and does not need an explanation. God defined and explains Godself, I AM WHO I AM.
Sin is separation or alienation from God, from others, and from self. Yes, it causes self-destructive habits and feelings. Sin does not damage God, because God cannot be damaged, but God loves us and does not want us to be entrapped in self-destructive habits that maim, kill, rob, cheat, hurt, etc., ourselves and others.
If sin is not a problem, then we don’t need salvation. However there is abundant evidence that sin a most serious problem in our world, and the biggest reason it is a problem because people will not admit that lying, cheating, and not trusting others is wrong and they need to change their ways. They need to REPENT and seek forgiveness.
Which only proves my point. Thank you. Parent who loves us… not an enemy.
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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