BioLogos and Inerrancy?

Oh, lighten up. :tongue: That was friendly banter.

Roger Olson has some nice posts on how inerrancy is more politics than doctrine in Evangelical circles on Patheos;

[quote=“AdCaelumEo, post:98, topic:5757”]
Scripture, for the most part, is interpreted deductively, what the Reformers called “good and necessary consequence.” [/quote]

I’m quite sure we have different concepts of hermeneutics (and by that I mean the generic approach to getting meaning out of texts,not just the art of uncovering biblical truth). I have never studied philosophy formally, though I had to read quite a few postmodern essays (folks like Gadamer, Derrida, Foucault, Ricouer, etc.) for one of my linguistics degrees. I have quite liked Kevin VanHoozer’s appropriation of Ricoeur for biblical hermeneutics. Maybe you will come across some of this stuff in your studies at some point and understand why I reject your assertion that you can start your deductive process with Truth from Scripture in the first place. I would insist you start with an interpretation.

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Ew. Patheos. :heresy:

Oh I like some of these !!!

The last one, “Why inerrancy doesn’t matter” … includes this gorgeous discussion!

". . . for most of us the word “inerrancy” has become too problematic uncritically to embrace and use. To the untrained and untutored ear “inerrant” always and necessarily implies absolute flawless perfection even with regard to numbers and chronologies and quotations from sources, etc. "

" But even the strictest scholarly adherents of inerrancy kill that definition with the death of a thousand qualifications. Some who insist that you must be evangelical to be faithful to Scripture’s authority say inerrancy is consistent with biblical authors’ use of errant sources. In other words, they say, the Bible is nevertheless inerrant if it contains an error so long as the author used an errant source inerrantly." [<<< Wow !!!]

"How many people in the pews know about these qualifications held by many, if not all, scholarly conservative evangelicals? When I teach these qualifications to my students (as I have done over almost 30 years) the reaction is almost uniformly the same:

“That’s not what ‘inerrancy’ means!” I have them read the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy and most of them laugh at the twists and turns it makes in order to qualify inerrancy to make it fit with the undeniable phenomena of Scripture."

… followed by this a little later !

“I have to conclude that within evangelical circles “inerrancy” has developed into a mere shibboleth because a person (such as I) can affirm everything many leading inerrantists believe about the Bible and yet be rejected and even criticized. I fear they have elevated a word into an idol.”

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I am struck by one feature in these discussions that is missing, and yet I regard it as important, and it is this. The Bible contains details of teaching, messages, and personal details of servants called by God to serve Israel, and subsequently the Church. The faith displayed by these servants is central to our understanding, and I am struck by the loyalty displayed by prophets to Israel, and the effort from these to maintaining the national identify against huge odds. We should remember that at times, it was difficult to consider Israel as a nation; e.g. enslavement and deportation to Babylon would, in most circumstances, have destroyed the national identity.

The details are there for our instruction, guidance and for particular matters, prophesy - but the primary purpose is to provide revelation of God within various context, that renders such revelation comprehensible to us. This is particularly so in the NT, as we are provided with details on Christ, the complete revelation.

If I approach the Bible in this manner, I can easily and absolutely claim it is infallible and without any error. God Himself has determined to provide us with knowledge of Himself, of His Son, and the life of His Saints and Apostles testifies absolutely to Him.

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This is a surprising claim since such registrations are a well-established historical fact,[1] as recorded by the Roman jurist Ulpian.[2]

“According to Ulpian (Liber secundus de censibus, 50.15.3), the inhabitants of the Roman province of Syria (which often includes those of the province of Judaea) were required to go personally to register for the census: men, over the age of 14, and women, over the age of 12, and both up to the age of 65.”[3]

A census in 104 CE under Prefect of Egypt Gaius Vibius Maximus, required people “to return to their own hearths” in order to be registered.[4]

“Proclamation of Gaius Vibius Maximus, praefect of Egypt. The house-to-house census having started, it is essential that all persons who for any reason whatsoever are absent from their nomes [a nomos was an Egyptian administrative district] be summoned to return to their own hearths, in order that they may perform the customary business of registration and apply themselves to the cultivation which concerns them.”[5]

This aspect of the census described by Luke is so well established that even historian Richard Carrier (an atheist who doubts that Jesus existed), acknowledges it accurate.[6]


[1] “As to the valuation census of the provinces, i.e. the preparation of lists for the sake of the apportioning of the taxes, the same principles regulated procedure as in the drawing up of the census of Roman citizens.14 In regard to the one as well as the other, the expressions were used: edere, deferre censum, profiteri; from which it is evident that the party liable had to give in the valuation himself, and his taxes were only controlled by the officers.15 The taxes had to be paid in the chief towns of the particular taxation districts;16 and, indeed, the landed estates had to be registered for taxation in those communes in whose domain they lay.”, Emil Schürer, A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ, First Division. (vol. 2; Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1890), 111.

[2] Gnaeus Domitius Annius Ulpianus, who lived around two hundred years after Jesus.

[3] Armand Puig i TĂ rrech, Jesus: An Uncommon Journey : Studies on the Historical Jesus (Mohr Siebeck, 2010), 77.

[4] Migrant workers, who had homes in the city while away from their administrative district and their family home, were exempt from this requirement.

[5] T. E. Page et al., eds., Select Papyri: Non-Literary Papyri, Public Documents (trans. A. S. Hunt and C. C. Edgar; vol. 2; The Loeb Classical Library; Cambridge, MA; London: Harvard University Press; William Heinemann Ltd., 1963), 109.

[6] “We do know that censuses could have such requirements for travel, not only from papyri [1.3] but also from common sense: it is a well known fact that even Roman citizens had to enroll in one of several tribes to be counted, and getting provincials to organize according to locally-established tribal associations would be practical (see also Endnote 8 in my essay Luke and Josephus; and also [1.3.5]).”, Richard Carrier, The Date of the Nativity in Luke (5th ed. 2006), n.p.

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I don’t disagree - but even disregarding that, Luke is an historical source in its own right, and by nearly all accounts is earlier than, say, Josephus, from whom we get an apparent 3BC date for Herod’s death (which is, note, tweaked by modern scholars to 4BC to take account of Josephus’ mention of a lunar eclipse, of which there were none in 3BC, and some numismatic evidence. Early traditions for the death of Herod in 1BC also exist, but are judged to be in error - but that is a modern consensus, not an established fact).

So even 4BC is reached by adjusting the historical sources used to establish it - because historical sources are always incomplete, always need interpretation, and are sometimes in error. But when the sources are relatively few, as they are for this time and place, we should remember that Luke, and Matthew, are amongst the more important and contemporary resources, rather than being simply in need of correction by the rest.

And very often the sources are, in toto, permanently insufficient to answer the questions raised by their apparent contradictions. In that case, it’s good practice to give all ones historical sources the “benefit of the doubt”, and live in tension (rather than “cognitive dissonance” - that requires more complete evidence than is usually available).

After that, though, one also needs to consider the status of Luke as canonical Scripture since the early days of the Church.

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Larry, I’d reply to this that, although the rejection of inerrancy doesn’t seem to have a handy name, it too “dies the death of a thousand qualifications.”

It doesn’t affect my faith ('tis said) if I simply accept that Genesis got its science wrong - they didn’t know any better.

Then it doesn’t affect my faith if Luke made up the birth narratives - Jesus was, after all, born, and the details are unimportant.

Then in the same “Inerrancy” thread we get to slavery (etc), in which the Bible has to be sifted on its moral teaching via (?) some other, correct, teaching in the Bible, disregarding Paul, who appears to sit easy with slavery or (?) some unspecified extra-biblical morality that trumps the Bible.

Then, finding that Jesus cites Genesis 2 in his moral teaching, quotes laws we would find abhorrent against the Pharisees, teaches about hell and pronounces destruction on Jerusalem, we find him to be capable of historical, moral and even theological error.

Departing from the text itself, we find that if we altogether reject the historicity of the Eden narrative as unscientific, an evolutionary account requires a different theory of sin and atonement, and in all probability a far less supernatural eschatology.

This may appear slippery slope thinking, except that I got each of these examples from BioLogos articles, and plenty plenty comments, over the last few years.

Now, in my view there is absolutely no requirement to reject even the strong Chicago description of inerrancy in order to be fully at home with evolution (as is most clearly expressed on this thread by Joshua Swamidass, though he prefers Lausanne). That makes the question of “BioLogos and Inerrancy?” one that is entirely unrelated to Evolutionary Creation as such. It’s a purely theological choice, orthogonal to science. I would say it’s no more something on which BioLogos ought to have a position than it does on paedobaptism or congregational government.

There’s a real danger of tying, or being seen to tie, minority theological positions to the broad proposition that “science and Christian faith belong together”. Or, to put it another way, for interested outsiders to conclude that to accept evolution they have to reject the authority of the Bible - so they’d better join the YECs to remain faithful. Counterproductive, or what?

But regardless of that, it behoves those who reject inerrancy, and yet consider themselves within the historic Christian tradition, to spell out positively the basis they hold for Christian doctrine, praxis and experience without it. And specifically, what they mean by “Scripture’s Authority” once that is relativised.

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15 posts were split to a new topic: Did the Census actually happen?

This is true.

This, not so much. The basis for Christian doctrine, praxis, and experience does not flow from inerrancy. For instance, I might write a book about Christ that is completely free from error in facts, logic, and conclusions. Since my book is inerrant, is it therefore authoritative over doctrine, praxis, or experience? No. To make this even more clear and sidestep questions of canon, did the earliest Christians read the gospel of John and say to themselves, “There are no errors in this book, so it must be believed”? No again.

The authority of Scripture derives from the conviction that it is inspired (or θεόπνευστος, to throw a bone to Jay), that its origin is God. Inerrancy is a deduction from Scripture. The Bible nowhere states the idea in propositional form. I submit to the authority of Scripture, and Scripture alone, as the only infallible guide in all matters of doctrine, faith, praxis, and experience. The fact that Scripture is without error did not enter into the equation until long after I already had recognized and affirmed the authority and inspiration of Scripture.

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Ooh, a bone. With meat on it. :meat_on_bone:

@gbrooks9 – Finally, the issue of slavery in the Bible, as I promised.

First, the statements in the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, do not approve of slavery. They restrict it and regulate it. Second, one must take the historical context into consideration. We should not confuse slavery as it existed in the 18th and 19th centuries in the U.S. with slavery as it existed several thousand years prior to that time. Slaves did have some limited rights in antiquity, such as not having to wash or dress their masters, and rest on the Sabbath. (Now you understand a little better why Peter was so aghast at the Lord washing his feet. Not even a slave would stoop so low!) Slaves often administered entire estates for their masters, and they often functioned in “professional” capacities, such as doctors. More importantly, there was no social “safety net” in agrarian societies of antiquity. Scholars estimate that as much as 15-20% of the population in first-century Judea was homeless. (Herod had a habit of confiscating peasant lands and giving them to his friends and family.) The poorest of the poor often faced a stark choice just to survive: a life of begging, banditry, or selling themselves into slavery. Removing that option in ancient economies would have doomed thousands to starvation. The abolition of slavery would have to wait until agrarian economies began to be replaced by market economies, and you should not overlook the fact that the British Parliament was spurred to act by William Wilberforce’s Christian convictions.

The last bit actually brings me to the crux of the matter, which is that God condescends to the time and place of those with whom he speaks. God could have revealed representative democracy to Moses on Mt. Sinai. God could have revealed better agricultural techniques. God could have revealed the scientific method (although, to some, he would have been doing both himself and the Israelites a disservice in that). Essentially, God does not short-circuit human development in his self-revelation.

Why would God do this? I would offer an analogy of parent and child. The human race, considered collectively, was in its childhood, in terms of its cultural, social, and economic development. Just as a parent gives guidance to a child, God sent his messengers to give us guidance. As the child grows and develops and gains experience, the guidance becomes more appropriate to his/her age. The same thing happens with God’s guidance in the Scriptures. This is known as “progressive revelation.”

Allow me to give some examples that are easier to illustrate than slavery, but play upon the same theme. Consider the feminist critique of the Bible. The same rules apply as above. The human race, in its childhood, was fiercely patriarchal. The Old Testament neither affirms nor approves of this, but men are restricted from abusing, abandoning, or neglecting women and children.

By the time Jesus appears, the message becomes clearer, though still not explicit. In first century Judaism, a man did not speak to an unknown woman. Yet, immediately after rebuking Nicodemus, the ultimate “insider,” we find Jesus speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well, and for the only time prior to Peter’s great confession at Caesarea, Jesus actually reveals to her that he is the Christ. Why? First-century rabbis would not accept women as disciples. In fact, a saying attributed to one first-century rabbi in the Mishnah says that it would be better to burn the words of Torah than teach them to a woman. But then we find Martha complaining about Mary because she is sitting at the Lord’s feet (the customary position of a disciple) instead of helping with the “women’s work.” Then, we find out that a group of women not only support Jesus’ ministry financially (which was barely kosher), they also travel with him (which was unprecedented!). Finally, at a time when women were regarded as unreliable witnesses and their testimony only reluctantly admitted into legal proceedings, we find that the first witnesses to the resurrection are women!

Next, we come to Paul, who despite his own accommodations to culture, points the way forward in his letters to the Galatians and Colossians: There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. -and- Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

So, rather than question why God chose to do it as he did, I see him condescending to the human race in its infancy, but continually pushing us forward to the ideal, which Paul expressed beautifully. I believe that it is our responsibility to live up to that ideal and continue to push society and culture toward that ideal of unity and love. That is the direction the messenger pointed, and we should follow it.

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I’m going to have to disagree with you there, Jon, if you include the Chicago Statement on Bible Hermeneutics from 1982. It in no ambiguous terms says that evolution is false and against what Genesis 1 teaches. Here is an example of that thought, taken from the commentary of Article 22 of the CSBH written by Norman Geisler:

      Likewise, the use of the term, "creation" was meant to exclude
      the belief in macro-evolution, whether of the atheistic or theistic
      varieties.

If you or anyone out there would like to read my paper entitled, “A Case to Rewrite the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy”, in which I expose the problems with the, “Chicago Statements” and science, particularly evolution, it can be found at this link: Articles – Evidence for Christianity (You would need to scroll down a fair amount to find it)

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I appreciate your response Jon. Perhaps the issue you raise deserves its’ own thread, entitled something like - ok I’ve abondoned inerrancy how do I define “inspiration” and what are the consequences of my doing so? (Too long but u may get my drift).

I don’t know about starting a new thread, but thanks for the push-back. Since I am no longer a “professional” Christian I haven’t had to articulate where I stand but I certainly wonder how I will explain some of this to my grandchildren.

I’ll give this issue and your post (and the other forum member’s responses to it) some thought and time for it to percolate rather than quickly typing out something.

Blessings on your day.

Larry Schmidt

Interesting. Did not know that. I look forward to reading your article. Geisler is the ultimate culture warrior.

@Jay313

Do I really need to read the whole post when your first sentence is erroneous?

Leviticus Explicitly spells out that Israel can enslave all the people around them who are not Israelites… and these are slaves for life… and their children can be considered slaves for Eternity.

You have no way out of this issue, Jay.

OK, I’ve abandoned Inerrancy now what? How do I define “inspiration” and what are the consequences of my doing so? What about the following quote from Jon

“…… Then, finding that Jesus cites Genesis 2 in his moral teaching, quotes laws we would find abhorrent against the Pharisees, teaches about hell and pronounces destruction on Jerusalem, we find him to be capable of historical, moral and even theological error.

Departing from the text itself, we find that if we altogether reject the historicity of the Eden narrative as unscientific, an evolutionary account requires a different theory of sin and atonement, and in all probability a far less supernatural eschatology.

This may appear slippery slope thinking, except that I got each of these examples from BioLogos articles, and plenty plenty comments, over the last few years.”

I don’t think that it necessarily follows that abandoning inerrancy means that we are “Departing from the text itself.” Several examples: it is because I am as close to the text(s) and to the canon itself I that I assign Gen 1-11, Jonah, Job as non-historical. Going with annihilation rather than eternal conscious torment doesn’t mean that I’ve left Hell (eternal judgement) out of my theological thinking. Being an egalitarian, and agreeing with Dr. Fee that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is a scribal gloss, is both an interpretive and textual choice.

All this to say that it seems to me within the inerrancy debate what we are really talking (writing) about is a desire for certitude (for some), protecting theological systems (for example reformed theology) of which inerrancy is a strong lynch pin as well as a modern approach to the biblical texts which is actually foreign to the texts themselves.

Lots more could be said, but those are some of my initial thoughts.

Larry Schmidt

Of course the OT approves of slavery, otherwise it would outlaw it instead of setting restrictions. It’s still horrible and I don’t think we should be trying to sugarcoat it. That’s exactly what some attempted to do in the case of slavery in the American South: the thought was that white slaveholders were civilizing the Blacks, who were actually very jolly singing in the fields. Slaveholders in the South liked to preach to their slaves the passages from Paul about how slaves should obey their masters (conveniently avoiding passages that taught equality).

Note: there is a movie coming out on Oct. 7 called The Birth of a Nation , about Nat Turner’s famous slave revolt. (Nat Turner was an enslaved Black preacher. His revolt was short-lived and he was hanged.)

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I don’t know if you can make an airtight case that God approved of slavery in the OT or the NT, even if the biblical authors definitely seem to accept it as part of life. The “slaves obey your masters, wives submit to your husbands” passages of the NT are household codes, and that was a genre that has plenty of contemporary Roman examples. As with OT interpretations, these passages make more sense if you look at them as part of a redemptive trajectory not as timeless commands reflecting God’s ideal. Compared to the Roman household codes, the NT ones convey a definite Christian ethic of love and interdependence, and women, slaves, and children are granted more agency and personhood than in the secular Roman ones. God’s word does not abolish cultures, but it does transform cultures when coupled with the work of the Holy Spirit in individuals and the Church.

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Leviticus 25:44-46:

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.

You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

You can will them [at death] to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

and my personal favorite …

Exodus 21:3-4
If he [a Hebrew bond servant] came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. [But…] if his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he [the Hebrew bond servant] shall go out by himself [released without his wife or children]."

The Wife is a slave for life. And the Children, born into innocence, are also born into a lifetime of slavery.

I’m pretty sure this is not right. People could redeem others out of slavery and every seven years slaves were supposed to be freed regardless. I think.