Biological Information and Intelligent Design: Meyer, Yarus, and the Direct Templating Hypothesis

You misunderstand: I had very little interest in getting into the subject with you, here. But since I’m a nice guy and since I couldn’t sleep last night, I can tell you that one pivotal paper was this:

The Propensity Interpretation of Fitness
Susan K. Mills and John H. Beatty
Philosophy of Science
Vol. 46, No. 2 (Jun., 1979), pp. 263-286

For some of the difficulties with a simple definition of fitness, see Sober’s article on the two face of fitness here: here.

My own view is that it’s better to leave fitness defined as a simple expectation of the number of offspring, and recognize that more complex constructs are going to be needed to effectively model many situations.

How would you describe the lactase persistence trait in herding populations, and why it became more common?

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@Jon_Garvey

I’m glad you recommended Koonin’s 2009 overview. I think the article goes a long way to show how the way words are chosen in an article can be like throwing grenades in a college lecture room.

The use of vocabulary and assumptions might “fly” in a room of scientists … but using the very same words in a BioLogos discussion creates a brawl and mayhem.

In short, that kind of article is for scientists of a certain narrow viewpoint … it was not written carefully enough to avoid all sorts of problems…

When I get a chance later today, I’ll list the areas that I think are problems.

Ciao!!!

As to @Eddie 's comment, he wrote:

“I don’t see what intellectual work the term “fitness” does. If an organism survives, multiplies, and thrives, saying that it survives and thrives “because it was more fit” than its competitors adds little or nothing to our understanding…”

Agreed … if that’s how someone uses the term.

But if “Fit” is a term applied to a genotype instead of an individual organism, it can refer to how well the genotype persists or expands in a population’s gene pool. That is purely mathematical and not tautological…

@glipsnort
@Jon_Garvey
@gbrooks9
@Eddie
@GJDS

Thank you for wrestling with the concept of fitness in evolution.

This is the question I raised in a newer blog about the evolution of e. coli in an experiment conducted by Harvard Medical School. See Evolution is a Giant Petri Dish. The difference there is that the experiment itself pointed to the fact that fitness is based the ability of organisms to adapt to their environment.

This experiment demonstrates that fitness is based on the ability to adapt to the environment, which in this case was the ability to develop resistance to antibiotics. This being the case in at least one scientific experiment, then ecology should be the basis or Natural Selection, unless one can give a legitimate counter example.

@Jon_Garvey
@glipsnort

Two points to conclude this discussion.

(1) Treatments of temperature are detailed and comprehensive, and a simple reading of Wikipedia will show this.

(2) Thanks for the link to the “two faces of fitness” - my impression from this is that fitness is a fuzzy term and is not comparable re understanding and definition as temperature. I tried to cut and past the conclusion of this chapter but I cannot - in any event, anyone interested can download the chapter provided by Steve.

Once again, my oversimplified discussion of molecular motion doesn’t affect the point I intended: I have never denied that temperature (or other statistical science) is scientific - the point is that individual molecules don’t have a temperature, or rather that their individual kinetic energy is unknown when temperature is being considered.

My overall point is only that what is unknown, or unrepeatable, should not properly be considered “science”, though statistical generalisations about them may be true, and speculations about their properties, used to model such generalisations, may be useful, though often not true.

Natural selection as an intuitive principle is fine - as “design” as an intuitive principle is fine. As a scientifically defined entity it is less so. Considering the lactose story, in its (relative) simplicity, “selection” stands for processes that are known, or at least believed to be likely and testable, and so in this case the details, as well as the population genetics models, are indeed scientific.

So here one is talking about a known single and specific “fitness” criterion, the ability to digest lactose, and not an abstract “fitness”. Various specific reasons are postulated why this should be advantageous, from additional sources of calories to Vitamin D deficiency in sunless climes, but “able to digest” is intuitively more likely to confer benefit than “inability to digest” - yet that intuition alone is speculation, not science: there may be other factors at play.

This lactose tolerance is correlated positively with a known cultural practice, dairying, and a known (if currently incompletely known) set of genetic markers: it is not just a generalised “environment”.

So in this specific example, both the environmental factors and the fitness criteria are known, and can be modeled. But even in this case, the modelling can be deceptive where speculation replaces true scientific knowledge.

From Wikipedia’s article on lactase persistence, I chased an article which, it was suggested, said that in Northern Europe a form of genetic drift was involved. This seems to be an exaggeration, but the article did suggest at least a couple of important qualifications to the “clearcut case of selection” conclusion.

The first is that niche construction is involved - they suggest that coevolution of the genetic tolerance and the culture of dairying was responsible for the phenomenon: dairying would be more attractive to lactose tolerant groups, and the development of tolerance would be more likely in pastoral societies. When there is a cultural chicken and a genetic egg, at the very least ones model will have to be changed to take that into account, and (I suppose) the apportionment of causation will thereby be less secure.

Since adult consumption of fresh milk was only possible after the domestication of animals, it is likely that lactase persistence coevolved with the cultural practice of dairying, although it is not known when lactase persistence first arose in Europe or what factors drove its rapid spread.

This leads to a second complication (and maybe the origin of Wiki’s “drift” allusion): the increase in dairying in Europe was largely due to migration of pastoral groups, and this would have spread lactase persistence across Europe regardless of selection (and the paper does suggest its spread to non-dairying nearby people groups). This too needs to be apportioned.

As inferred here, the spread of a LP allele in Europe was shaped not only by selection but also by underlying demographic processes; in this case the spread of farmers from the Balkans into the rest of Europe.

Nevertheless, the paper does not dispute, and neither do I, that natural selection occurred, though they do point out the inherent dangers of all models not based on actual observation:

However, as with any simulation model of population history, many simplifying assumptions have to be made and the extent to which these assumptions may lead to erroneous conclusions remains unknown.

In other words, the more unknown contingencies underlie ones science, the more likely it is that the resulting science will also err - and that the error will remain unrecognised.

At one time, one simplifying assumption was that all evolution occurred through natural selection, considered as a general principle rather than the specific interactions between dairying and lactase persistence of your example. But even now, in that case, there’s a real danger of assuming ones conclusion. I mentioned that the advantages of tolerating milk are intuitively obvious, but that doesn’t establish them as true. As my cited article says (last quote):

The reasons why LP, in conjunction with dairying, should confer such a strong selective advantage remain open to speculation.

One suggestion was the prevalance of Vit D deficiency in sunless northern Europe - but this paper found no evidence for what seems a very plausible thing in the year that the UK government has advised all us Brits to take Vitamin D supplements. The more general assumptions about better nutrition leading to higher birthrates or survival really ought to be tested against historical records comparing the survival of milk-drinkers and milk-intolerant in the same societies as lactase persistence was spreading. But such data are not, of course, available - though I am aware of some studies that early agricultural societies were less well nourished than hunter-gatherers.

To the extent that plausible assumptions about selective advantage are made, rather than historical data input, other possible mechanisms will be missed. In the lactase case, this risk is relatively small, but in the original focus of evolutionary theory, and the one that causes controversy - the origin of species - speculations about unknown contingencies (unknown selective pressure and unknown environments expressed as “fitness” in the abstract) are mostly what have been used to construct instances of natural selection.

This is not the application of known scientific laws to new circumstances, but of indefinable general concepts like “natural selection” to intuitive speculations. I don’t consider that ought to be called science, if science is about “scientia” (knowledge), though that doesn’t in any way make it an invalid human activity.

What makes you think they’re indefinable?

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My - you digested my post faster than I proof-read it.

The lack of a robust definition not dependent on other indefinables like “fitness” makes me think it’s indefinable. And the fact that, unless I missed it, nobody has defined it on this thread.

This sounds very much like a criticism of Newtonian Physics because it ignores the fundamental basis of reality … protons, electrons and neutrons. How can Newtonian Physics be correct if they ignore the ultimate reality - - individual particles?

How much do you actually know about this subject? What gives you the idea that there’s no robust definition? Your posts are the kind of stuff which killed ID for me, at the time when I was most interested in it.

And my point, and my only point in introducing temperature and molecular motion, was that quantities can be unknown and unmeasurable but still be well-defined and useful scientific concepts.

[a great deal skipped]
I didn’t ask for a history of research into into lactase persistence (which I’m already familiar with), nor for a general description of your thoughts about selection. I asked these questions:
Was there something wrong with my inference about lactase? Was the inference scientific? Do you have a different conceptual framework that yields the same insight?

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Well, mostly because you posted your complaint here, in this thread, in response to me. Should Waddington start to do the same, I’ll respond to him too. (Also, he’s been dead for 40+ years.)

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Hi Jon,

You might have missed this:

Steve’s shorthand is very useful. I would suggest sharpening the definition a bit by defining fitness as “the expectation of the number of surviving, reproductively successful offspring.” Would that be a good working definition? What do you think, @glipsnort?

Hi Eddie,

Your problem is that you are thinking like a philosopher–i.e., you are apply a binary categorization to a single individual. But when biologists use the term “fitness,” they are applying it in a statistical fashion to a population.

To apply your analogy properly, Eddie, we would have to propose this thought experiment: suppose there is a population of 4 million homo sapiens sapiens. A million of the males are Valentino clones and a million are Chris Falter clones. The expectation for each Valentino clone is that he will have 2.3 children who survive to reproductive age, and the expectation for each Chris Falter clone is that he will have 1.7 children who survive to reproductive age.

Apply the mathematics across 100 generations, and you eventually reach the point where the entire surviving population descends from Valentino, and the Falter lineage is no more.

Now the tricky question is: based on this, what can we predict about any particular Valentino in the first generation? Will he have 2.3 children? The answer is: probably not!

First of all, it’s impossible to have 2.3 children.

Secondly, that individual Valentino might get arrested on false charges and get thrown in prison for a life sentence before he has a chance to have children. He might get hit by a bus before a has a chance to have children. I could list thousands of reasons why any particular Valentino might not be reproductively successful.

So it’s possible for an individual Valentino to be romantically attractive and yet be unsuccessful at reproduction. This is true even though that Valentino would have the expectation of 2.3 reproducing children, just like the other 999,999 Valentino clones. Does that make sense?

Where this gets particularly fun is when you look at a mutation that produces a novel allele with a strong advantage to an individual Valentino. Can we predict that this mutation will spread through the population? Not really. That individual Valentino might die in a duel, or die of famine, or get raised by an abusive parent, or die from malaria, etc.

All we can say is that in a sufficiently large population over a sufficiently long time, a large number of alleles will arise that confer a fitness advantage, and overall those fitter alleles will tend to spread through the population. There will be many individual exceptions, but that is the way things work when the models are statistical rather than philosophical.

Does that help, @Eddie?

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@glipsnort
@Eddie

In regards to temperature, it is an objective measure. It represents a measure of energy, but just one measure of energy. Fitness is not about energy. It is about the ability of alleles to survive and flourish. All experiments indicate that that this is directly relates to the ability of an organism to adapt to it environment.

We know that temperature is based on the amount of energy or vibration in a mass. We cannot make a similar statement about fitness unless we say that fitness is the ability of an allele to adapt, which includes all sorts of adaptions, such as appealing to the other sex. Fitness is a meaningless abstraction. Ability to adapt has been scientifically established.

I cannot make any sense of this - the ideal gas and the law relating pressure, volume and temperature have been around for about a century. At least read some from Wikipedia before you make these strange statements.